The case for Homo Erectus

[Willystyle]

55 minutes ago, Incorrigible1 said:

However, the warming that doomed the mammoths was entirely natural, and that I doubt any current warming trend due to "our friends on the right," but again due to natural causes shouldn't shade my consensus with your posting.

Agreed, of course past warming trends were natural and I’m not trying to go into a political debate about the current state of our planet. However when you look at what’s happening to arctic animals today like musk ox it may give a pretty good idea of what happened 10,000 years ago. Anyhow, back to Sasquatch, Homo erectus, Alma, etc....

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111109436

[hiflier]

8 hours ago, Arvedis said:

 

That is musing? wheel spinning? based on....? Zana has nothing to do with Bigfoot. Are you piecing together anecdotal stuff from wherever? You have a solitary study to stand on with zana. Sykes has been politely but decidedly proven off target by many. Why don't you search for Loren Coleman's book review or just do searches. You'll find nothing that substantiates a connection or even brushes against anything remotely feasible except legend.

 

I know we're leaving out Burtsev's zana investigation here and for good reason.

 

I've been on the road into Eastern Canada for about a month now and won't be back home until mid-week next week. During that time internet has been pretty spotty. My spouse, dog, and I rode out Hurricane Dorian while we were on the North side of P.E.I. and it was pretty worrisome over last Saturday night to say the least but we weathered it fairly well even though our little 16' trailer got rocked pretty good a few times. At least we were on some high ground as the tidal surge did cause some concern along with some power outages for a coupe of days. Nothing compared to what Nova Scotia experienced which pretty much iced our trip to Cape Breton. After I arrive home I will begin to look deeper into my "musing" and see if I can get the shoe to fit a little better.

Edited September 14, 2019 by hiflier

[NathanFooter]

On 9/11/2019 at 8:26 PM, NatFoot said:

 

I agree with hiflier here 100% and although he thanked your response, you didn't really do anything to answer his question.

 

Ok...so they spoke at some BF "conventions"?

 

C'mon now...then they aren't serious about it...and they're just about the $$$ or "fame" from these events. 

 

 1 - Your opinion is based on nothing but assumptions.   Derek owns his own business and has been booked for months in advance ( over a year ) out on work and has not had much opportunity to sit down and get the entire group together to discuss the results. Shane has been spearheading current efforts also in an effort to locate new nest sites to try and find fresh samples for testing. I will respond to hiflier separately as I have time, I am also starting work as I have moved and what time I do get it is out in the woods locally researching ( we all have day jobs ) reports. 

 

 2 - Yes,  Derek and Shane spoke at one event this spring and Shane spoke at the other in OR just last month ( I was there holding the booth ), both of these should be on youtube. 

 

 3 - That is also nothing more than an opinion based on no substance. I am a member of the Olympic Project.

 

  Free time has been short for leadership in the OP and what time has been spared has gone back into field operation/expeds. I understand the frustration some have about this effort as it has been quiet for a long time now but things are still going on.  

[SWWASAS]

22 hours ago, Willystyle said:

Hominins have always been an adventurous race. What drove us to brave the deserts of the Sahara and the Middle East in wave after wave after wave in order to leave Africa? It’s just in our biology to be explorers and it’s one of the reasons we began to walk upright in the first half place. 

 

I’m still skeptical of the Marx Overkill Theory. Why were elephants in Asia and Africa spared but mammoths (amongst other ice age megafauna) in Europe and the Americas systematically targeted for slaughter and wiped out? I think it’s always been about the warming climate rendering shaggy fur obsolete (no matter what our friends on the right accuse of simply being a Chinese hoax or a “greenie/liberal” conspiracy theory). I’m not saying we didn’t occasionally hunt them or even scavenge from kills but surely they weren’t the easiest quarry to bring down and decimate?? 

 

I think they were here long before we were. The Cerutti Mastadon site is thought to be 130,000 years old. Big assumption tying this to Sasquatch I admit but I have to ask ‘what else had the means of smashing a mastadon bone with a crude cobble 117,000 years before the first paleo-Indian showed up?’ Homo had entered Eurasia as early as 2 million years ago. It’s anybody’s guess how long it took them to find Beringia and trek it but the potential is there for it to be a pretty long while back. 

 

I don’t doubt the difficulty of the terrain one bit but if mammoths, bison,  wolves, bears, etc were able to make the trek numerous times without boats then it’s entirely possible that a bipedal hominin was able to follow these herds into the new world without boats as well when the water levels were much lower. 

You are forgetting the big pushes out of Africa occurred during the last ice age.    In my case the maternal side DNA marker L3 indicated an East African exit about 67,000 years ago and on my Paternal side the M178 marker indicated a exit out of East Africa 70,000 years ago.  The Sahara was never a factor and the nile river valley and the middle east was much wetter than it is now.     However the mid latitudes of Africa were probably plagued with water shortages.  During ice ages much more of the earths water is tied up in the arctic and glaciation,    and mid latitudes become very arrid.    The half of the US not under ice was arid grasslands because the expanded polor zone pushes the jet stream where the storms form and ride South.     I would guess drought and famine were larger factors in the push out of Africa than human wanderlust.    

 

Wolly Mammoths were Northern lattitude animals.     Being herbivores they needed grass growing at least most of the year to have something to eat.     The fact that the polar ice and extensive glaciation covered much of Europe and Northern Asia there was very little habitat left for the Mammoth.  Concentrating them where human hunters were forced by the same ice to live also.     Mammoth numbers had to have been much smaller because the elephant habitat in Africa and SE Asia in the last ice age is pretty much as it is today.    Humans and Mammoths in the same habitat promotes hunting.         The human pushes into Asia did not occur until about 60,000 years ago.    That gave Asian elephants a big head start before being hunted.  

 

Remember the human spread into SE Asia and Polynesia began about 60,000 years ago.    To island hop, humans needed boats.     If they had them then they certainly had boats 14,000 years ago for the trip into North America.    Probably different boats but Japan and parts of China have been sea faring for most of human presence.    New evidence suggests that Europeans reached NA first about 23,000 years ago in boats out of ireland... Most likely following the ice sheet across from Europe.     Most of Western Alaska and British Columbia are islands with deep inleted coast lines. Easy to traverse with boats but difficult to impossible to walk.   Boats were and are still part of the culture and heritage of the Native Alaskans.   It is more likely they arrived in boats than developed them after they came.       As I mentioned the glacier fields are a formidable barrier.   While some sort of North Slope of Alaska traverse East past the mountains into the interior of the Yukon Territory then South is possible, it would be as difficult as crossing antarctica on foot.       The migrations of the camels and horses which migrated from NA to Eurasia,   bison,   and other herbivores predate the movement of modern humans.    So humans did not follow them across.     The last ice age started about 100,000 years ago.  It had nearly ended by the time humans are thought to have come into Western NA.    The lower sea levels were still present when the melt started and that is about the time the humans made the crossing.     The camel migrated in an earlier ice age which have been going on for the last 2.5 million years.    We have had many ice ages lasting about 100,000 years followed by interglacial periods  lasting 10,000 to 15,000 years during the last 2.5 million years.  

 

 

[NathanFooter]

 I spoke briefly with Derek, they got a report back from the labs results on the samples.    They did in fact get DNA fragments from many different species but much of the genetic information was simply destroyed by environmental conditions ( UV light, rain, temperature and collection ). 

 

 They did manage to locate sequences within the " Human range " but again, they are just remaining fragments and it was not enough to say more than that. This result could mean either that the samples are contaminated or that Sasquatch DNA is close to human and that the fragments of DNA recovered are shared with modern man and as result can not be distinguished ( at least not with the recovered segments ).   With that result the best response is to go out and examine the topography and ecological circumstances to be able effectively locate fresh nests and collect new samples. This is the focus now that the OP collectively are working to accomplish, Shane is actively working on the area to find similar locations for survey.

[SWWASAS]

On 9/13/2019 at 7:14 AM, starchunk said:

 

I discount it because of the unlikely odds that a more vegetarian and tropic dwelling primate would up and migrate out of a specialized environment without a catalyst, let along then survive a long trek through much colder terrain without, freezing or starving or being out competed by animals better suited to environment if not preyed upon. Giganto in SE Asia accounting for a North American Mystery Primate is like cutting off a segment of a jigsaw puzzle piece to force to fit rather than having the correct piece in the first place.

I think you have hit on an interesting point.    If BF made the Asia to North American migration, what drove that?   While a Bering land bridge would make it easier, why migrate unless there was a need for such a difficult journey.   I just left Alaska.   It became very evident to me that a migration North to South in Alaska would be a very difficult thing without boats.     Every glacier dumping into the sea is a formidable barrier and there are many ruining out into the ocean from the mountains to the East.   Travel Eastward is just as difficult because of North South running major mountain ranges.     

 

What would drive major migrations human or BF?      The disappearance of mastodons is thought to be overhunting by humans.  DId that drive humans North  then South into North America in search of more game.?     One mastodon kill likely fed a tribe for months.    Did BF simply follow the humans as the humans migrated?    They seem to have been watching us for thousands of years.     Perhaps unlike their smaller cousins,  BF because of their size were able to carry off what mastodon humans could not.     We have modern reports of BF grabbing human shot deer and elk and carrying it off.    Even more unlikely, but possible,   is that before wolves bonded with and began to protect humans,  perhaps BF protected humans from Saber Tooth tigers and other large predators in exchange for scavenging rights.   There were some very large and nasty predators during the last ice age.   The point is, what drove them to migrate or did they?   Maybe they migrated in an earlier ice age and that explains their large differences from humans?   That would put them genetically more divergent from humans in the primate family tree.  

8 minutes ago, NathanFooter said:

 I spoke briefly with Derek, they got a report back from the labs results on the samples.    They did in fact get DNA fragments from many different species but much of the genetic information was simply destroyed by environmental conditions ( UV light, rain, temperature and collection ). 

 

 They did manage to locate sequences within the " Human range " but again, they are just remaining fragments and it was not enough to say more than that. This result could mean either that the samples are contaminated or that Sasquatch DNA is close to human and that the fragments of DNA recovered are shared with modern man and as result can not be distinguished ( at least not with the recovered segments ).   With that result the best response is to go out and examine the topography and ecological circumstances to be able effectively locate fresh nests and collect new samples. This is the focus now that the OP collectively are working to accomplish, Shane is actively working on the area to find similar locations for survey.

With chimpanzee and bonobo DNA being 99% the same as human,  BF has to be nearly the same.     That suggests to me that until a BF is on a lab table for DNA testing,   random tests like this nest will always find human looking DNA fragments because they are 99% the same.    That tells me DNA testing on anything but a dead BF or blood from one is a waste of money. 

[NathanFooter]

18 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

I think you have hit on an interesting point.    If BF made the Asia to North American migration, what drove that?   While a Bering land bridge would make it easier, why migrate unless there was a need for such a difficult journey.   I just left Alaska.   It became very evident to me that a migration North to South in Alaska would be a very difficult thing without boats.     Every glacier dumping into the sea is a formidable barrier and there are many ruining out into the ocean from the mountains to the East.   Travel Eastward is just as difficult because of North South running major mountain ranges.     

 

What would drive major migrations human or BF?      The disappearance of mastodons is thought to be overhunting by humans.  DId that drive humans North  then South into North America in search of more game.?     One mastodon kill likely fed a tribe for months.    Did BF simply follow the humans as the humans migrated?    They seem to have been watching us for thousands of years.     Perhaps unlike their smaller cousins,  BF because of their size were able to carry off what mastodon humans could not.     We have modern reports of BF grabbing human shot deer and elk and carrying it off.    Even more unlikely, but possible,   is that before wolves bonded with and began to protect humans,  perhaps BF protected humans from Saber Tooth tigers and other large predators in exchange for scavenging rights.   There were some very large and nasty predators during the last ice age.   The point is, what drove them to migrate or did they?   Maybe they migrated in an earlier ice age and that explains their large differences from humans?   That would put them genetically more divergent from humans in the primate family tree.  

With chimpanzee and bonobo DNA being 99% the same as human,  BF has to be nearly the same.     That suggests to me that until a BF is on a lab table for DNA testing,   random tests like this nest will always find human looking DNA fragments because they are 99% the same.    That tells me DNA testing on anything but a dead BF or blood from one is a waste of money. 

 

 I can mostly agree, if you get really fresh blood or a good deal of hair with follicles then you could get a full genome.    A tall order it seems.

[SWWASAS]

23 minutes ago, NathanFooter said:

 

 I can mostly agree, if you get really fresh blood or a good deal of hair with follicles then you could get a full genome.    A tall order it seems.

If and when a body or bones with viable DNA are sequenced I suspect we will find that it has been sequenced before.    I think the glitch happens when it mostly looks human,   but parts do not.    So the assumption is made that it is contaminated or fragmented human.    I do not think a DNA lab will ever make the leap until they have a big chunk of BF flesh to test and verify that they can repeat the test with the same results.   But what it is will not be evident, only that the chunk of meat has a lot of similarities to human,   chimpanzee, and bonobo.    It could be that if it is very close to human,  a lab might even call in law enforcement.     The skeleton or body has to be examined to define the morphology of the species.   That is the tall order but in this case necessary to prove existence.  DNA alone will not work.  

[Twist]

^ Bingo

[SWWASAS]

   

 

Historical Implications

"The Triquet Island artifacts were 14,000 years old, implying that a group of people inhabited the island roughly 2,000 years before the end of the Ice Age. With these findings, archaeologists could confidently conclude that Triquet Island was never covered by one of the massive glaciers that engulfed Canada during this time period. This was a clear contradiction of what historians had believed up until this point in time. This realization would soon bring even more historical implications."

 

Just found this reference to a dig on the shore of Triquet Island off the coast of BC.    This supports my contention that early man used boats.    They found harpoon tips used for harpooning large animals.    14,000 years ago is 2000 years before the end of the ice age.   Apparently the island was inhabited until a large tsunami wiped it out.    Since it was an island and not affected by glaciers,   the only way to get there was in boats.   If mankind was there, they were likely all along the coast of BC.    The true history of NA is covered in a 100 plus feet of water along our coastlines or covered by tsunami debris.     This dig did not show anything until they were about 5 feet below surface soil.    This was likely the same tsunami that is evidenced on the Washington coast that was over 300 feet tall.  

Edited September 24, 2019 by SWWASAS

[Catmandoo]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:26 AM, Willystyle said:

Well, judging from the shape of Patty’s head (assuming that the P & G film wasn’t a hoax) then it seems as though the conical head can be apparent in males as well as females unlike in gorillas, Bili Apes, or Orangutans where it’s a feature of sexual dimorphism. Crests or keels in hominins such as Paranthropus, Homo erectus or early Homo sapiens seemed to appear independent of sex. Is this further proof that Sasquatch isn’t a species of ape? 

 

Sorry that I am late in looking at this.

Willystyle, you are in the 'newcomer' category. There is a lot of info to sift through on this forum. Takes a lot of time.

For example, the above image is repeatedly posted. It is not Patty. The image is a computerized 'airbrush' cartoon character created by the artist Peter Travers.  The image is never posted with copyright or artist name details. Peter Travers has a website should you wish to purchase similar artwork. He also uses 'white out' as an art medium.

Do you have another image as a visual aid to discuss head shape?

[Willystyle]

1 hour ago, Catmandoo said:

Do you have another image as a visual aid to discuss head shape?

I must say I was unable to find a copy of this pic after searching for the name of the artist you mentioned so I do ask for a link to his work if you don’t mind. I’m not going to spend all night trying to sell photo after photo. The P & G film is by far the most credible piece of video footage to date and it shows the same thing which has been described in sighting after sighting, a robust conical head with a protruding brow ridge. Here’s a copy of the video, slowed down and stabilized. Disregard it if you like. It’s true that not all Sasquatch sightings describe the cone shape however as I’ve said, not all homo erectus or early homo sapien skulls contain a saggital keel either but the prevalence is certainly higher than it is in modern humans. 

 

[Wolfjewel]

See:

thepaintedcave.com

 

it will have the image above based on Patty, which the artist describes as a sketch made over the top of the image from the film. Pete Travers has also on his website other sketches, with different head shapes, based on various witnesses.

[Catmandoo]

Thanks for posting the link Wolfjewel. Travers has quite a background in visual effects.

 

Willystyle, I do not have a problem with the PGF. There are those who worry about the date and time of day  I do not. Kodachrome does not lie. Patty is Patty.  I don't buy 'artwork' or pay much attention to cartoon characters.

[Willystyle]

What I take away from this video is that Homo erectus was the bridge between the much smaller, more chimp sized Australopithecenes and the larger, more modern human sized hominins. Is it possible that an isolated population which found its way into N. America kept growing during one of the ice ages due to Bergmann’s Rule? Thoughts from the group??