The case for Homo Erectus

[MIB]

^^^^ In context, it is a possibility, probably our strongest candidate, but it is far (FAAAAR) from certain.    Until "current" times there have always been 2 or more primate species on the landscape.    Eventually one branch survives and the other dies off, but sometimes those branches that do die off have multiple branches of their own before they terminate.   It's equally likely that the ancestor of bigfoot from H. erectus times was a brother or cousin species, not H. erectus.   We can't know from the fossil evidence available right now.   We can't truly be sure of anything regarding bigfoot ancestry 'til we have a type specimen we can do DNA analysis on ... repeatedly for reliability.    That should give us a decent estimate of how far back our most recent shared ancestor was which could tell us which species that ancestor was likely to be.   Without H. erectus DNA, even connecting those dots is a bit of a guess.

 

A thing to think about ... during the Pleistocene, the last 2.3 million years, there have been 4 separate opportunities presented by land bridges for migration from Asia to North America.    If bigfoot arrived during the most recent glacial maximum, over the last land bridge, they probably arrived pretty much as they are now.   They should exist essentially as they are now, no more different than an Asian person from a European person, somewhere else.  There should be some fossils somewhere.   If they arrived earlier, which seems more likely for a handful of reasons, then what we are looking for in the way of their ancestor might be pretty different than them and we might have it in the fossil record without recognizing it.

 

I think we need to look at Home erectus, but we also need to consider all known human-like species in H. erectus' time frame and we have to allow for the possibility / probability there are more that we don't know about .. and may never know about if they were obscure enough .. lurking in the fossil record.  

 

The evidence is not good enough for certainty of anything.   Anyone offering certainty is at least lying and possibly delusional.  

 

MIB

[Willystyle]

13 minutes ago, MIB said:

There should be some fossils somewhere.

 

Sorry I know I’m beginning to repeat myself with some of the evidence that’s been out there right under our noses but we have the fossils. I do agree fully though that without some pure, organic Homo erectus dna to use as a basis of comparison it will be impossible to fully connect the dots. 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joel_Irish/publication/259344448_Prehistoric_human_skeletal_remains_from_Jalisco_Mexico/links/59d25ad9a6fdcc181ad60ec3/Prehistoric-human-skeletal-remains-from-Jalisco-Mexico.pdf?origin=publication_detail

[MIB]

3 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

we have the fossils

 

Sorry, I mean we don't have verifiable bigfoot fossils.   Without those, everything else is speculation.    Broken chain of custody, of sorts.   Without that, even if we had Lovelock Cave skeletons to test, we can't prove they were bigfoot or related to bigfoot, we'd only know they exist and, if we can extract DNA, figure out how they relate to **us**.   No way to connect the dots to bigfoot without having a type specimen.

 

MIB

[Madison5716]

I love Bob Gymlan's thoughts on this.

 

 

 

This one addresses the topic of multiple bipedal hominids.

 

 

[starchunk]

On 9/16/2019 at 3:05 PM, SWWASAS said:

I think you have hit on an interesting point.    If BF made the Asia to North American migration, what drove that?   While a Bering land bridge would make it easier, why migrate unless there was a need for such a difficult journey.   I just left Alaska.   It became very evident to me that a migration North to South in Alaska would be a very difficult thing without boats.     Every glacier dumping into the sea is a formidable barrier and there are many ruining out into the ocean from the mountains to the East.   Travel Eastward is just as difficult because of North South running major mountain ranges.     

 

 

 

Exactly, without such a driving motivator why would a likely specialized creature just uproot and leave. Very unlikely to me.

On 9/24/2019 at 11:32 PM, Catmandoo said:

 

Sorry that I am late in looking at this.

Willystyle, you are in the 'newcomer' category. There is a lot of info to sift through on this forum. Takes a lot of time.

For example, the above image is repeatedly posted. It is not Patty. The image is a computerized 'airbrush' cartoon character created by the artist Peter Travers.  The image is never posted with copyright or artist name details. Peter Travers has a website should you wish to purchase similar artwork. He also uses 'white out' as an art medium.

Do you have another image as a visual aid to discuss head shape?

 

 

anything citing the PGF assumes the film to be legit, that hasn't been established either way.

[Willystyle]

1 hour ago, starchunk said:

Exactly, without such a driving motivator why would a likely specialized creature just uproot and leave. Very unlikely to me.

Who says Bigfoot is a specialist?? People have reported them eating deer, berries, wild pigs, fish, etc. If anything I’d consider them a generalist. At their talks Jeff Meldrum and Cliff Barackman believed their numbers could be roughly estimated by how many black bears lived in an area, a thought also shared by the late Grover Krantz. The only people that think they’re  a specialist are those that still think they’re a gigantopithecus. I still don’t understand why following wild game herds wouldn’t be enough of a driving force to take them through Beringia. If it is Homo erectus they had already conquered much of the rest of Africa and Eurasia.

[starchunk]

6 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

Who says Bigfoot is a specialist?? People have reported them eating deer, berries, wild pigs, fish, etc. If anything I’d consider them a generalist. At their talks Jeff Meldrum and Cliff Barackman believed their numbers could be roughly estimated by how many black bears lived in an area, a thought also shared by the late Grover Krantz. The only people that think they’re  a specialist are those that still think they’re a gigantopithecus. I still don’t understand why following wild game herds wouldn’t be enough of a driving force to take them through Beringia. If it is Homo erectus they had already conquered much of the rest of Africa and Eurasia.

 

 

Was referring to Giganto who was thought to be one.

[Willystyle]

8 minutes ago, starchunk said:

Was referring to Giganto who was thought to be one.

Interesting you say that. I had always been under the belief that giganto was a bamboo eating specialist as well. At his talk this summer Meldrum was trying to sell the idea that the tooth and jawbone which led to the conclusion of a bamboo diet was not true at all with the enlarged molar simply being attributed to the robustness of its jaw similar to a Paranthropus. Maybe he’s on to something or maybe he’s just still trying to make the giganto theory work.

[starchunk]

55 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

Interesting you say that. I had always been under the belief that giganto was a bamboo eating specialist as well. At his talk this summer Meldrum was trying to sell the idea that the tooth and jawbone which led to the conclusion of a bamboo diet was not true at all with the enlarged molar simply being attributed to the robustness of its jaw similar to a Paranthropus. Maybe he’s on to something or maybe he’s just still trying to make the giganto theory work.

 

A big molar size is exactly what you would need to munch on stuff like bamboo. My personal take on Meldrum/Giganto is that he was trying to sell an altered puzzle piece to fit the hole in front of him rather than looking at the facts. Possibly a case of academic hubris.

[SWWASAS]

Giganto is a known.    Meldrum is just trying to use a known to formulate a theory to fit the existence of BF.     That is what scientists do,  try to "sell" their theories.   Einstein had a difficult sell for his theories.   It was years before his Theory of relativity was validated by a Solar eclipse.   I think maybe too much is made of the giganto molar.     If a jaw containing only molars of a bear was found,   it might be concluded that bears are vegetarians, where is in reality they are omnivores.      A full skull of a giganto might answer a lot of questions. 

[Willystyle]

...and I don’t disagree with any of this. I’ll admit I had a little bit of a chuckle myself when Meldrum introduced that notion. Funny thing is he instantly shot down my own question to him as to whether the Cerutti Mastadon site could’ve been from a Sasquatch as he said it was “too speculative with no direct evidence.” Speculation is all he seems to be relying on though these days to sell his theories.

[starchunk]

39 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

Giganto is a known.    Meldrum is just trying to use a known to formulate a theory to fit the existence of BF.     That is what scientists do,  try to "sell" their theories.   Einstein had a difficult sell for his theories.   It was years before his Theory of relativity was validated by a Solar eclipse.   I think maybe too much is made of the giganto molar.     If a jaw containing only molars of a bear was found,   it might be concluded that bears are vegetarians, where is in reality they are omnivores.      A full skull of a giganto might answer a lot of questions. 

 

That's what I said, he's trying to tailor the evidence to his liking more than basing it on facts. There are other more humany knowns that are a better fit, and it doesn't even have to be a known one, we have been finding new ones of late. That said, as an aside, Meldrum's cred for me has slipped in recent years, more a celebrity at this point.

[SWWASAS]

3 minutes ago, starchunk said:

 

That's what I said, he's trying to tailor the evidence to his liking more than basing it on facts. There are other more humany knowns that are a better fit, and it doesn't even have to be a known one, we have been finding new ones of late. That said, as an aside, Meldrum's cred for me has slipped in recent years, more a celebrity at this point.

Personally I do not agree with Meldrums assessment that BF shows no evidence of culture which he claims is necessary for it to be near human in intelligence.    He confuses culture with cultural artifacts.   We have so little knowledge about where and how BF lives, for all we know they have villages deep in the woods.   They may not walk around with bows and arrows, but they do construct things.    This glyph on a stump was constructed for me when I was present.   

[starchunk]

1 minute ago, SWWASAS said:

Personally I do not agree with Meldrums assessment that BF shows no evidence of culture which he claims is necessary for it to be near human in intelligence.    He confuses culture with cultural artifacts.   We have so little knowledge about where and how BF lives, for all we know they have villages deep in the woods.   They may not walk around with bows and arrows, but they do construct things.    This glyph on a stump was constructed for me when I was present.   

 

What I have run into is not just an ape, not human persay but it's not an ape, it's differently intelligent in my opinion. I would guess Medlrum is hesitant to shy away from conventional doctrine, but then theres a lot of conjecture as well. We just don't know yet.

 

[SWWASAS]

I think he puts too much weight on the fact that BF does not make and carry weapons.   He needs a giant ape.      Humans have made weapons for the better part of a million years but BF can run down most of its prey unlike us humans.