Examples Of Dogs Unafraid Of Bf

[Guest wudewasa]

The theory of wolves coevolving with humans to fill a scavenging/alarm niche is a recent one.

Humans saw the domesticated wolf (dog) as beneficial for two reasons:

1) These animals ate the unwanted parts of game carcasses that smelled and attracted flies.

2) The dogs would bark and alert humans when danger (rival human groups and predators) came around the camp.

# 2 is what we are talking about in this thread. Some breeds and individual dogs are more aggressive, especially if trained to be so. Yet, most dogs that are deemed as aggressive are actually defensive, protecting their owners and territories.

Katy, I know heelers well, and they are some of the most intelligent, physical, loyal breeds around, with no two individuals being alike. Multiple breeds have been used when developing the cattle dog, including the dingo from a 4000+ year old feral bloodline. Their diminished prey drive makes them excellent stock dogs.

PT, Cinder wasn't wanting to attack the creature that you encountered, but letting it know "if you mess with my friend I will defend him." Your adversary seemed to have understood that message.

Edited July 6, 2011 by wudewasa

[norseman]

Norse though admittedly the Europeans have a sick sense of fun,

It's no different than we American houndsman putting a racoon in a roll cage. And it's not about "fun" it's about training your dogs. The "pet" Grizzly is simply helping them train their dogs to hunt bear.

put a much smarter bipedal with thumbs on the chain and the fun will stop with those wanna be bear dogs broken and in the trees...

Why would the practice session look any different? Why would the practice session look any different if it was a man with a knife on the end of the chain? Those dogs are working the target just like a pack of wolves hunt, the one to your front keeps you busy while the ones behind you move in. It keeps you off guard and constantly spinning. The more you spin the more likely the two legged wolves with guns are going to catch up and end the fight.

Now take away the chains and let the BF pick the place, and the best of bear dogs will be no more if... if they corner the BF... Just saying, and the pine martin abides...

Do you have a lot of experience hound hunting? Attrition is apart of the game, and each game species is unique. But I see no reason why a Sasquatch would fare better with hunting dogs than any other species of animal (including man). If you have trained your dogs on a Squatch. But with each new species there is a learning curve. Racoons are not cougar, cougar are not bear and bear are not hogs.

Edited July 6, 2011 by norseman

[Guest Cervelo]

I don't see the dog issue any different than the people issue

City dog lots of stuff to be afraid of in the woods

Country dog lots of stuff to respect in the woods

Something else to remember dogs are pack animals you are their pack leader if you are afraid they are afraid. PT's story is a perfect example his dog picked up on the pack leaders disposition and acted accordingly. Just a great combination of good owner and great dog!! On a personal note PT I know how bad and all to well how you miss your good friend!!

Edited July 6, 2011 by Cervelo

[Guest BootsnSaddles]

I was on the web playing different Bigfoot calls that were recorded all over the country. I can’t remember which one I hit, but one of them sent my dog, a Shiba Inu into a very agitated state. He began screaming (Shiba’s can scream similar to small wolf or coyote), and he was running back and forth up the hall acting very disturbed by something. When the sound stopped so did he. This rare performance by him was evidence enough for me that that sound was a real animal, a Bigfoot, coyote, or something, but an animal, and that it frightened him terribly.

[Guest Cervelo]

And just in case you need another reason to love dogs and want to know what they are really thinking?

[Guest wudewasa]

norseman,

Your point about training dogs to work around the animal that they are being conditioned to hunt is noted. This helps the dogs protect themselves from injury by experience with the prey through direct, controlled interaction. The owner is looking out for his animals' best interests.

While bear baiting and roll cages may be legal in some areas, I view these as immoral training methods. Likewise, there are folks who trap coyotes and release them in confined spaces so their dogs can tear them to pieces. That is just as bad as using a bait dog to train others to fight.

In NC, hunters can use dogs to hunt bear. The Plott hound hails from the Plott Balsams of NC, where bear hunting with dogs has been going on for hundreds of years. In KY, bear season is a realitively new practice, and dogs are not allowed. Perhaps this will change, but culture dictates policy often enough.

Hunting is a necessary conservation tool, and I respect this practice on a subsistence level, not for the joy, bragging rights or the trophy mount. This is my perspective and you may disagree with it. Just be safe out there when going after hairy bipeds for the kill! We do need a voucher specimen by some means if this animal exists!

[Guest]

My own opinion is that a dog out of it's region or element is more than likely a hindrance or handicap rather than an ally. Much in the same way as a mule pack might be when our Biggie resorts to careful steps avoiding game trails and such when danger is sensed.

I agree. You would have to use dogs that are used to hunting in the same area or the same type of country. I would not consider doing anything else myself.

I see a strategic placement of a very small group of hunters at geographic "strainers" or funnels as being one possibility that was discussed on a thread awhile back in reference to some features in Saskatchewan I believe (probably was on the "old" forum and would need archives to retrieve). Using dogs to move animals towards a funnel might work, thinking you are going to tree a BF would be purely an accidental scenario and mighty good fortune the way I view the panorama. I say this knowing it has been mentioned that the dogs chasing the deer examples can put the dogs at risk....and I have been fortunate enough to have observed the woods from a tree stand (though not hunting per se)when just that scenario occurs.

Dogs "treeing" or "baying" an animal is a common method to hunt bears, cougars, hogs, and raccoons. When dogs are used to hunt deer, as is popular here in the South, hunters set up at funnels, saddles, known deer crossings and trails on powerlines, pipelines, etc., and try to intercept the deer when they cross. I have seen bears and coyotes accidentally ran out ahead of the deer, too, and a friend saw a cougar (Florida panther) once. The hounds used primarily for deer hunting are bred not only for their incredible sense of smell, but also for great endurance. Many times they will run the deer to exhaustion, and I have seen them even catch deer like this. That is the same tactic that wolf packs use when hunting. So as far as hunting goes, basically, you have

A)tracking dogs (they follow the trail of an animal (usually slowly), but may never catch up to it. They also usually do not bark a whole lot unless they are really close to the subject they are trailing (there are obvious exceptions)

treeing/baying dogs that pursue the animal and attempt to catch it or trap/corner it

C) running hounds that attempt to chase the animal to exhaustion and then catch it

Essentially all a BF has to do is avoid a dogpack during the daylight because effectively they will use the night against the dogs.

Most dogs, especially hunting hounds, have excellent night vision, and as Cervelo pointed out, some animals are actually hunted with dogs specifically at night

edited to add: I can see where a dogs superior sense of smell could be used as a screening tool to let a pursuer know where to begin the pursuit perhaps but again .... don't see the dog as a "game, set match" type of operation in itself.

I agree with your last statement as well. I don't think anything is a home run or grand slam idea, even in hunting known animals whose habits have been studied and that we know well. As we say in hunting - That's why we call it "hunting" and not "shooting." Most of the time we come home empty handed (so do most predators in the wild). Btw, I was not trying to tear apart your post, and I hope I did not come across that way!

Okay Surveyor I am here, and the thread was how to capture or kill Bf's in case anyone wants to know?

My sheprot would probably charge into the tree line at an unknown animal too. But then she most likely be killed or come running back as soon as the Bf's growled or screamed at us or became aggressive. Primal fear maybe? can't condition a dog to handle that IMO.

So as much as i love the older encounters written by the pioneers. I still don't see any examples or posted links to any more recent investigated reports? And I am sure there's some dogs breeds that will attack almost anything. Pt's story of a dog passing one by is very interesting but it still wasn't attacking, tracking or trying to bay a Squatch? And a bear is just a bear, sorry NM.

back to you, JMO tracker

Thanks for checking out my thread, Tracker! I haven't read anything from recent times yet, the book I am currently reading is a collection of old reports. Well, I did post one report from the 2000's that happened in Louisiana, but that was not from the book I'm reading. As far as reports being recent or old, though, I don't think that matters at all, and it was never mentioned in the other thread. I may or may not run across any recent reports of hunting dogs running a potential BF, who knows? I have a theory as to why it may be rare for hounds to run one if they cross its scent trail while hunting/running another animal, though. It comes from My experience of my uncles training their deer hounds, and friends of mine training their **** hounds and hog dogs (I don't hunt anything other than squirrels with dogs, though I have been on hunts with others who have dogs many times). Keep in mind it is just my theory, not a proven fact at all. Here goes:

In earlier days, hunting with hounds was much more widespread across the country than it is now. In fact, it was very common. Here in MS, for example, not only did folks hunt deer with them, but they hunted bear, boar, rabbits, as well as predators. Most of the time back then the hounds were multi purpose dogs, and would hunt whatever their masters turned them loose on. It really didn't matter, because hunting seasons did not exist until Roosevelt began the initiative to establish them. If they put out on a bear track and a deer ran out, they shot it & had venison for dinner instead. Fast forward to 2011. Anti-hunting groups have all but shut down the use of dogs in hunting across much of the country. Here in MS, bear hunting is gone. Hunting seasons (which are good!) strictly regulate what you can hunt and when, so the use of a "multi-purpose" hound is now a bad thing. If you are out at the hunting club/lease with the guys hunting deer with your hounds for half a day and they come out running a coyote instead of a deer, you can imagine how that goes over. Now hunters take great care in training their dogs to be "species specific" as much as possible. Young dogs are not only trained with older ones, but they are rewarded for tracking/running the appropriate game, and severely punished for tracking the wrong species. As an example, a friend with a **** hound would catch raccoons in a live trap, then walk the raccoon on a leash through the woods and let it climb a tree, tying it off so it could not escape. Then, a couple hours later, he would release the dog. After the dog "treed" it, he would reward it. He made it stay at the tree barking longer & longer. Later, he would do the same thing with an Opossum. If the dog treed it, he would shoot the pussum & spank the dog with it until the dog would not look at it. Then he would tie the possum to the dog. After a while, the dog hated the smell of possums. A similar process has been done with most hounds to ensure they will only trail the animals their owners want them to.

I think your dog would probably protect you (I don't know for sure, I am guessing, lol), as it is bred into shepherd's to be fearless in protecting their flocks and masters. I do agree that I would not have much confidence in one dog against a BF. But you know, I would not hunt bear or cougar with one dog, either. Although a grizzly might instinctively run from a dog at first (unless it had young, was guarding a kill, was wounded, etc.), if it was cornered or didn't want to run, it could easily take out the largest, most ferocious dog. That is why you hunt with a pack. The dogs surround the animal (if they bay it up) and attack or aggravate it from all sides.

I don't see the dog issue any different than the people issue

City dog lots of stuff to be afraid of in the woods

Country dog lots of stuff to respect in the woods

Something else to remember dogs are pack animals you are their pack leader if you are afraid they are afraid. PT's story is a perfect example his dog picked up on the pack leaders disposition and acted accordingly. Just a great combination of good owner and great dog!! On a personal note PT I know how bad and all to well how you miss your good friend!!

Cervelo, you should get a show on Animal Planet! Oh wait, some other guy already beat you to it! J/K! You made an absolutely excellent point!

[bipedalist]

Btw, I was not trying to tear apart your post, and I hope I did not come across that way!

Nope, no problem, I put my opinion out there to get some other qualified opinions about it ..... not a hypocrite and it's not my field of endeavor....actually appreciate the response and the give and take on this one.

[Guest tracker]

I agree with your last statement as well. I don't think anything is a home run or grand slam idea, even in hunting known animals whose habits have been studied and that we know well. As we say in hunting - That's why we call it "hunting" and not "shooting." Most of the time we come home empty handed (so do most predators in the wild). Btw, I was not trying to tear apart your post, and I hope I did not come across that way!

Thanks for checking out my thread, Tracker! I haven't read anything from recent times yet, the book I am currently reading is a collection of old reports. Well, I did post one report from the 2000's that happened in Louisiana, but that was not from the book I'm reading. As far as reports being recent or old, though, I don't think that matters at all, and it was never mentioned in the other thread. I may or may not run across any recent reports of hunting dogs running a potential BF, who knows? I have a theory as to why it may be rare for hounds to run one if they cross its scent trail while hunting/running another animal, though. It comes from My experience of my uncles training their deer hounds, and friends of mine training their **** hounds and hog dogs (I don't hunt anything other than squirrels with dogs, though I have been on hunts with others who have dogs many times). Keep in mind it is just my theory, not a proven fact at all. Here goes:

In earlier days, hunting with hounds was much more widespread across the country than it is now. In fact, it was very common. Here in MS, for example, not only did folks hunt deer with them, but they hunted bear, boar, rabbits, as well as predators. Most of the time back then the hounds were multi purpose dogs, and would hunt whatever their masters turned them loose on. It really didn't matter, because hunting seasons did not exist until Roosevelt began the initiative to establish them. If they put out on a bear track and a deer ran out, they shot it & had venison for dinner instead. Fast forward to 2011. Anti-hunting groups have all but shut down the use of dogs in hunting across much of the country. Here in MS, bear hunting is gone. Hunting seasons (which are good!) strictly regulate what you can hunt and when, so the use of a "multi-purpose" hound is now a bad thing. If you are out at the hunting club/lease with the guys hunting deer with your hounds for half a day and they come out running a coyote instead of a deer, you can imagine how that goes over. Now hunters take great care in training their dogs to be "species specific" as much as possible. Young dogs are not only trained with older ones, but they are rewarded for tracking/running the appropriate game, and severely punished for tracking the wrong species. As an example, a friend with a **** hound would catch raccoons in a live trap, then walk the raccoon on a leash through the woods and let it climb a tree, tying it off so it could not escape. Then, a couple hours later, he would release the dog. After the dog "treed" it, he would reward it. He made it stay at the tree barking longer & longer. Later, he would do the same thing with an Opossum. If the dog treed it, he would shoot the pussum & spank the dog with it until the dog would not look at it. Then he would tie the possum to the dog. After a while, the dog hated the smell of possums. A similar process has been done with most hounds to ensure they will only trail the animals their owners want them to.

I think your dog would probably protect you (I don't know for sure, I am guessing, lol), as it is bred into shepherd's to be fearless in protecting their flocks and masters. I do agree that I would not have much confidence in one dog against a BF. But you know, I would not hunt bear or cougar with one dog, either. Although a grizzly might instinctively run from a dog at first (unless it had young, was guarding a kill, was wounded, etc.), if it was cornered or didn't want to run, it could easily take out the largest, most ferocious dog. That is why you hunt with a pack. The dogs surround the animal (if they bay it up) and attack or aggravate it from all sides.

Recent meaning since we started investigating and keeping track of encounters and sharing info. I don't bring my dog on the hunt because she gives up our sound and messes up track signs.

You know you hit something on the head that i don't often share. Wolf packs IMO are the only preds the Bf's have to worry about. Sure not the adults but the young that stray too far might get shredded over a territory dispute? Sometimes they even compete when howling into the night.

oh yea i better put this in JMO

[Guest KentuckyApeman]

Anyone who has read about first hand sightings knows there are many reports in which the persons dog(family pet or other) is completely frightened when a BF is in the area.

Now many of these canines are trained hunting dogs or very defensive family pets. They will charge a bear, moose, cougar or human intruder without hesitation. Yet they whimper and cower when a BF is nearby. So danger itself does not seem to be a factor. Is there another reason?

[Guest]

gentics?

If dogs have been domesticated for around 15,000 years, they share quite a bit of DNA with their gray wolf ancestors. Those ancestors didn't survive by being nice, or by being aggressive towards sasquatches. I'm guessing anything less than full retreat (unless you're in a huge pack of dogs) resulted in immediate death and possible consumption for dinner.

that's a pretty hefty selection method

Edited February 7, 2012 by Biggie
Removed quote from previous user.

[Cotter]

Interesting, however, dogs don't behave that way (scared/whimpering) around wolves, yet wolves will go out of their way to kill a dog (and coyote).

[Guest MikeG]

15,000 years! Really? I have heard evidence for dogs being domesticated 30,000 years ago, and informed speculation that aboriginals had domesticated dogs when they arrived in Australia 40,000 to 50,000 years ago. Does anyone have anything better than Wiki to point to on this?

Mike

[Guest]

does a few thousand years change their DNA even more away from gray wolves? I'm genuinely curious.

Here's a side thought. I've always assumed bigfoot pre-dated us, like since pre-history homo erectus 2M years ago pre-dated. That could be wrong, maybe they came along after domestication, and that freaks the dogs out.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Biggie
Removed quote from previous user.

[Guest MikeG]

Yes, it would do. We don't really need to talk in terms of DNA. If the animal changes, so will its DNA. So, 30 or 40 thousand years is twice as far from the wolf/ dog ancestor (don't forget that wolves may have changed a bit since we first started stealing their puppies) as 15,000 years, so there is more time for more selective breeding, and thus changes to the dog (and its DNA).

Personally I would avoid speculating about the location of sasquatch on the complicated tree of ancestry which joins us all. We're led to believe that all will be revealed in a few short weeks, and there seems little point in providing ammunition for those who are going to say "nya nya ne nya nya.......I was right, you were wrong"

Mike

Edited February 7, 2012 by MikeG