Huntster Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Madison5716 said: Why would they make tools if they don't need them to live? ........ On a personal level, I often ask; Why build a campfire if you don't need one? The question came up yet again last night here on the beach. People up and down the beach had fires, and I brought plenty of firewood, but I'd never light it up. My son-in-law and his buddy were here, and they really wanted to burn some. I had already given away lots of it. I really don't want to go home with it. I don't need it. I have stoves. It's summer. I don't need heat. Yet, people want to burn fires. We even have a wildfire nearby. https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6387/ I don't get it.
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, NathanFooter said: Yes, it is within human size range. based on what witnessed in 2009 and again in 2015 the skull shape and size did not appear as a low volume dome constructed mainly our of recessed muscle framework. I did not see massive oral structure, expended cheek bones or a short an overly large face structure when compared to the entire head size. Intelligence can be developed and applied along different lines so it is not alien for me to consider that size range. Just my take and it could be very wrong I suppose. I disagree with the applied differently part. Neanderthals and Denisovans were very good tool makers Our genus is masters of the planet in tool making. So something doesn’t jive. Looking at your picture. A afarensis skull would do quite well if upsized? 6 minutes ago, Huntster said: On a personal level, I often ask; Why build a campfire if you don't need one? The question came up yet again last night here on the beach. People up and down the beach had fires, and I brought plenty of firewood, but I'd never light it up. My son-in-law and his buddy were here, and they really wanted to burn some. I had already given away lots of it. I really don't want to go home with it. I don't need it. I have stoves. It's summer. I don't need heat. Yet, people want to burn fires. We even have a wildfire nearby. https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/6387/ I don't get it. I do.
NathanFooter Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, norseman said: I disagree with the applied differently part. Neanderthals and Denisovans were very good tool makers Our genus is masters of the planet in tool making. So something doesn’t jive. Looking at your picture. A afarensis skull would do quite well if upsized? I do. That skull would not fit within the facial structure of what I have drawn above, again the dental structure did not push forward out of the face much more than the the eye sockets themselves, the the back of the skull was longer than the skull you posted also. You would have to completely redesign the skull to get it to fit the face and structure of what I encountered in 09. This skull and art work is very much like by 09 guy.
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 I cannot speak for what you saw Nathan. But I think your skull above is way too domed for Patty’s head. Patty has a huge brow ridge and no forehead. The top of her skull is very flat. And I’m not so concentrated on the jaws and teeth as they really have no function to the size of the brain. And then walking away her head is slung out to the front like a Gorilla with no neck. It doesn’t look like a Neanderthal or other more modern Homo species at all.
Huntster Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, norseman said: .........Neanderthals and Denisovans were very good tool makers Our genus is masters of the planet in tool making. So something doesn’t Well, first of all, Neanderthals and Denisovans were humans. Tool making is simply technological evolution. They didn't die out because they didn't invent atlatls. They were killed off because they failed to invent atlatls before sapiens. Sasquatches aren't being hunted down with rifles. They aren't even in direct competition with us. They're eating stuff that most of humanity couldn't even identify to save their lives. .........I do......... LOL!..........When the guys with brains larger than peanuts invented 338 WinMags, and especially when they invented tritium night sights, I lost my fear of goblins. If it has a heartbeat, I can kill it with a squeeze of a finger. Even in a world filled with lawyers, environmentalists, and governemt agents, anything attacking my camp is fair game. No license or tag needed, no limit, and no closed season. I'm the baddest goblin in the woods. I don't need a campfire to stay safe. In fact, staring at the fire inhibits my shooting vision. Even before firearms our "science" know-it-alls were pontificating that Clovis Man killed off the megafauna in North America with stone spears. No 12 gauge slugs needed. LOL, you can't have it both ways.
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Huntster said: Well, first of all, Neanderthals and Denisovans were humans. Tool making is simply technological evolution. They didn't die out because they didn't invent atlatls. They were killed off because they failed to invent atlatls before sapiens. Sasquatches aren't being hunted down with rifles. They aren't even in direct competition with us. They're eating stuff that most of humanity couldn't even identify to save their lives. LOL!..........When the guys with brains larger than peanuts invented 338 WinMags, and especially when they invented tritium night sights, I lost my fear of goblins. If it has a heartbeat, I can kill it with a squeeze of a finger. Even in a world filled with lawyers, environmentalists, and governemt agents, anything attacking my camp is fair game. No license or tag needed, no limit, and no closed season. I'm the baddest goblin in the woods. I don't need a campfire to stay safe. In fact, staring at the fire inhibits my shooting vision. Even before firearms our "science" know-it-alls were pontificating that Clovis Man killed off the megafauna in North America with stone spears. No 12 gauge slugs needed. LOL, you can't have it both ways. 1) Which is why I maintain they are either not human or a very very rudimentary form of human. They do not compete with us and our tools directly. Which is why they are something else. IMHO. 2) I cold camp sometimes and agree 200 percent into staring into a fire ruins your night vision. I’m usually using a wood stove anyhow. But for the vast majority of humanity they will hug that fire for comfort! Or their shelter...... A tent gives people comfort, maybe they remember caves, and think they are in one? Anyhow I know WHY people do this. It doesn’t mean I agree with it.
Huntster Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, norseman said: .........But for the vast majority of humanity they will hug that fire for comfort!........ I think guys are the main culprits, and they mostly do it because it's like an expected outdoors toy. They play with it: poke it, feed it, rearrange it. It's like the tv set that they left at home. Women like the heat, but they're too afraid of fire to start and maintain one unless it's an emergency (like me). ...... A tent gives people comfort, maybe they remember caves, and think they are in one. Shelter is a critical need, and even a campfire qualifies, even if just in part. But in most cases today, people have a fire just because it's part of the outdoor experience.........but certainly not mine.
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Huntster said: I think guys are the main culprits, and they mostly do it because it's like an expected outdoors toy. They play with it: poke it, feed it, rearrange it. It's like the tv set that they left at home. Women like the heat, but they're too afraid of fire to start and maintain one unless it's an emergency (like me). Shelter is a critical need, and even a campfire qualifies, even if just in part. But in most cases today, people have a fire just because it's part of the outdoor experience.........but certainly not mine. I think people still fear goblins and saber tooth cats. And when the sun goes down they light an artificial one to keep the dark at bay. Shelter is important. But if there is a goblin outside? The last place I wanna be is in a stupid tent. Keeping a dog close also gives us comfort. I really think our brains are still living in the Pleistocene.... Speaking of men vs. women? Direction. I was a mover for much of my life. The truck is loaded and the paperwork is signed. If the wife was handling the move? The directions I got to the new house were written out. Like a cake recipe. If the husband was handling the move? I got a drawn map. Now when my wife is in the woods? And it’s time to go back? She retraces her steps. The cake recipe backwards. The pickup could be north of us just 200 yards. But she lacks triangulation. Language. When women talk it’s covering 90 subjects in five minutes and I cannot get a word in edge wise. If I have something pertinent to say I will wait and when there is a break I will then divulge my thoughts. All of the women look at me as if to say.....that was FIVE minutes ago. Usually my wife and my three daughters. Women speak twice as many words in a day as a man. Multi tasking. I can watch TV. Watch the kids. Cook supper. Talk on the phone. ONE at a time. If I try to do all of them at once? I have no idea what the plot of the TV show is. The kids have set the dog on fire. Supper is burning. And the person I’m talking to on the phone has to repeat themselves just one more time. My wife? Can do all of them at once. Vision. My wife and I get into fights all the time. I’m wearing blue jeans and a blue shirt...... I MATCH! No....no you don’t my wife will say. Why I ask? Well.... your shirt is a robins egg blue and your pants are a navy blue..... AND? I say! She then proceeds to roll her eyes at me. I stopped buying her house stuff because the kitchen towels were a different shade of green than the curtains and the chinaware. Is there any wonder why finger nail polish comes in 5000 colors? Empathy. I have little. Maybe my favorite mule I have to shoot or my loyal dog. But I can kill lots of stuff without any remorse. In fact some of them I quite enjoy it. Such as shooting ground squirrels that dig up my pastures. My wife is super squeamish. She let a pack rat off the porch one night with a shovel sitting right next to the door..... You let it go I roared! You didn’t even swat at it!!?? It was scared she said....and had big sad eyes..... I rolled my eyes at her that time. Relationships. Men stick to a rigid hierarchy. The strongest toughest man leads when left to our own devices. A distinct pecking order. Top to bottom. Women on the other hand have many equal relationships like spokes of a wagon wheel. Sometimes a spoke is discarded and replaced. My guess is that women stayed close to the cave and the fire. They picked berries and tanned hides and watched kids and gossiped while the men were gone and multi tasked. That’s why they have a big vocabulary and can tell when fruit is ripe and have eyes in the back of their heads when kids are in trouble. Everything was based on loose majority rule as a group. While men were tracking and stalking mastodon 20 miles from the cave. They probably didn’t talk at all during the day. They used hand signs for fear of giving away their position. This was a singular pursuit but one slip, and the hunt could end in failure. Berries do not run away, or turn and charge you. But once the hunters cornered their prey? They stabbed it to death, and cut into pieces and they had better know which way home was. This would be a time of great joy and talking and laughter. Their families would be safe from starvation for a good bit. Not a time for sorrow or sadness. The leader gave the orders and the NCO’s executed them. Maybe one group would push animals into a ambush by the other group. Etc. Any how just something I was contemplating.... feel free to jump in. The moral of the story is that men and women both have strengths and weaknesses and we desperately need each other to lead a successful life. My wife just came down stairs and I read her this.... she approves this message. Fires and tents make her feel safe. Edited June 24, 2019 by norseman 1
Huntster Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, norseman said: I think people still fear goblins and saber tooth cats. And when the sun goes down they light an artificial one to keep the dark at bay....... I agree. But the hunters among men are a bit different. The only fire I want or need is the one that provides heat, and modern technology allows me to use one that is more contained than a campfire. .........Shelter is important. But if there is a goblin outside? The last place I wanna be is in a stupid tent........ It's the sleeping bag that really ties me up. I feel like a burrito in it. But the 10mm is within reach. If I was as smart as Albert Ostman, it would be in the sleeping bag with me, but he didn't have a tent......... ........Keeping a dog close also gives us comfort....... BIG TIME! Dogs are the best early warning system there is in the outdoors.........usually. In my worse bear experience, my dog failed completely, then the damned bear pressed us because he wanted the dog. .........I really think our brains are still living in the Pleistocene.... I think mankind is all over the map. Some are in worlds that don't even exist. I'd even say that most are in such places. .........Speaking of men vs. women? Direction. I was a mover for much of my life. The truck is loaded and the paperwork is signed. If the wife was handling the move? The directions I got to the new house were written out. Like a cake recipe. If the husband was handling the move? I got a drawn map. Now when my wife is in the woods? And it’s time to go back? She retraces her steps. The cake recipe backwards. The pickup could be north of us just 200 yards. But she lacks triangulation. Language........ Mrs. Huntster is pretty tough. I do pamper her when in the woods, and I probably shouldn't, but I do it to encourage her to go with me. She has no sense of direction whatsoever. If we went out i to the wilderness and I dropped dead, she's as good as dead. She wouldn't know north from west. .......When women talk it’s covering 90 subjects in five minutes and I cannot get a word in edge wise. If I have something pertinent to say I will wait and when there is a break I will then divulge my thoughts. All of the women look at me as if to say.....that was FIVE minutes ago. Usually my wife and my three daughters. Women speak twice as many words in a day as a man........ I gave up on that years ago. I keep quiet at home and dump my words here on the Bigfoot Forum. I've already been divorced from here, and behold! I'm remarried! It was easy! .......Vision. My wife and I get into fights all the time. I’m wearing blue jeans and a blue shirt...... I MATCH! No....no you don’t my wife will say. Why I ask? Well.... your shirt is a robins egg blue and your pants are a navy blue..... AND? I say! She then proceeds to roll her eyes at me....... !!! You look fine! She's being a woman! (Don't you dare tell her I wrote that...........) ........Empathy. I have little. Maybe my favorite mule I have to shoot or my loyal dog. But I can kill lots of stuff without any remorse. In fact some of them I quite enjoy it. Such as shooting ground squirrels that dig up my pastures. My wife is super squeamish. She let a pack rat off the porch one night with a shovel sitting right next to the door..... You let it go I roared! You didn’t even swat at it!!?? It was scared she said....and had big sad eyes..... I rolled my eyes at her that time........ Does Mrs. Norseman hunt? Mrs. Huntster does, but non-edible critters (which only exist in good times) are safe from her. She would have let that pack rat go, then later when it took up in the corner of the shop, would have told me to kill it. .......Relationships. Men stick to a rigid hierarchy. The strongest toughest man leads when left to our own devices. A distinct pecking order. Top to bottom. Women on the other hand have many equal relationships like spokes of a wagon wheel. Sometimes a spoke is discarded and replaced....... I don't have a good handle on this. Relationships for me are an individual thing. If it's a pecking order, I'm not in. F**k that. I don't peck. It's all personal. If we don't mesh, we never will. .........My guess is that women stayed close to the cave and the fire. They picked berries and tanned hides and watched kids and gossiped while the men were gone and multi tasked. That’s why they have a big vocabulary and can tell when fruit is ripe and have eyes in the back of their heads when kids are in trouble. Everything was based on loose majority rule as a group. While men were tracking and stalking mastodon 20 miles from the cave. They probably didn’t talk at all during the day. They used hand signs for fear of giving away their position. This was a singular pursuit but one slip, and the hunt could end in failure. Berries do not run away, or turn and charge you. But once the hunters cornered their prey? They stabbed it to death, and cut into pieces and they had better know which way home was....... Exactly! It's still that way in Bush Alaska. ......... The moral of the story is that men and women both have strengths and weaknesses and we desperately need each other to lead a successful life....... No doubt about it. I have no business living without my beloved Mrs. Huntster, our children, and now our grandchildren to give me meaning. Otherwise I'm just another germ. ..........My wife just came down stairs and I read her this.... she approves this message. Fires and tents make her feel safe. Tents have saved my life. Fires? Well, they've made life better, and they can certainly save my life if I don't have a tent.........or if it's -30 degrees even in the tent.........
hiflier Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Huntster said: Women like the heat, but they're too afraid of fire to start and maintain one And then there's my spouse. She has got to be the biggest, baddest, most tenacious female fire maker I have ever known. She NEVER ceases to impress me and if the wood is wet? Well then it's just game on for her! She will not quit until the thing's blazing. We get one going to ward off the little nuisance fly-girls that own the dusky time of day and like to suck the blood out of those that, like us, hate bug sprays. Yes, it screws with my night vision but that's one of the reasons I purchased my thermal imager. And YES! We have a dog who lifts his head at things I don't hear. He's not prone to flights of fancy so he never utters a peep until he's sure something's getting close. One night a twig snapped close to camp and he let his opinion be known on what he thought about that. We're vegetarian now and the fire does make us long for a danged good charred hotdog though. Ah well, one of these days........... Edited June 24, 2019 by hiflier
Madison5716 Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 I'm thinking they aren't "human" but a very different parallel evolved hominid. Whlat if they should be in their own genus but we stop using human standards to explain them? What if its true that they are descendants of the something vastly more primitive, say Homo habilis, and they came to North America, went big, and evolved into something very different? I'm beginning to be of the opinion that they are both intelligent and not as closely related as we're assuming. Maybe we're second or third cousins, not first cousins on the hominoid bush. I think our own tool use is evidence of our intelligence, of course, but we are also incapable of living in the natural world without them. We cannot survive in the wild. We rely on tools to survive. That makes us vastly different than every other species on the planet, but does that make us better? We are assuming tool use makes us better in some way, superior. I dont think tool use makes us a stronger species, better adapted to survive. It sure looks like our poor planet would be better off without some of our "tools". We are clever monkeys, but not wise. I think its rather counterproductive to keep trying to find where bigfoot fots on our family tree when perhaps he has his own divergent branch. Just thinking out loud on the bus on the way to work. Im seeing lots of damaged humans and I'm sure some are quite primitive lol. I cant wait to get my truck fixed omg. 1
hiflier Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) You raise some very good points. One thing that keeps coming back in the bigger picture? All of the supposed Sasquatch DNA samples that come back Human. Denisovans, and other ancient Homo lines show markers that say they are a distinct species. No one really says what those markers are though? Or at least I haven't researched the point and probably don't have the education to understand what the markers say beyond layperson terms. In the case of possible Bigfoot DNA though (if that's what the DNA is truly from) apparently there are NO markers distinguishing it from Human. The markers that have been noted in past samples indicate something not only unknown but impossible as well. OR the suspected samples are forever contaminated amid protests that the processes used to clean and isolate them was done by the book. There is a conundrum in there that we always seem to go round and round on. It wouldn't surprise me if programs for testing Sasquatch DNA are allowed but the results that point to Sasquatch are not. Sure, sounds very much like a conspiracy theory but when EVERY SAMPLE beyond a common creature shows something "other" then the "other" is always contaminated with Human DNA. ALWAYS. EVERY ONE. Now I am not a geneticist, but I don't think it takes being one to understand the protocols for handling ANY sample for ANY reason that would assure the isolation of mysterious gene sequences. They can do it with a tens of thousands year old Denisovan finger bone https://www.sciencenews.org/article/first-fossil-denisovan-skull-cave-siberia but they can't discern anything but common animals and Humans from a soil sample taken from under a mysterious nest that couldn't be more than four years old??!?? Saying the sample was too degraded from moisture and freezing to find anything BUT normal animals and Humans??!?? Good enough to find all THOSE normal creatures though, right?. I am sorry but this whole thing STILL makes no sense whatsoever. (Rant over) Back on topic Yes, To say that Bigfoot is it's own species is a good conclusion. And there may indeed be a common Homo ancestor BEFORE the Great Ape split. But if the DNA is so close to us as to always say Human then any markers that say different species are either beyond our technology to find (really doubt that) OR those markers are being kept secret. If BF is real then I truly think those are the only two choices available for science, and us, to arrive at. If there is an alternative conclusion I would like to hear it from someone. Edited June 24, 2019 by hiflier
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 25 minutes ago, Madison5716 said: I'm thinking they aren't "human" but a very different parallel evolved hominid. Whlat if they should be in their own genus but we stop using human standards to explain them? What if its true that they are descendants of the something vastly more primitive, say Homo habilis, and they came to North America, went big, and evolved into something very different? I'm beginning to be of the opinion that they are both intelligent and not as closely related as we're assuming. Maybe we're second or third cousins, not first cousins on the hominoid bush. I think our own tool use is evidence of our intelligence, of course, but we are also incapable of living in the natural world without them. We cannot survive in the wild. We rely on tools to survive. That makes us vastly different than every other species on the planet, but does that make us better? We are assuming tool use makes us better in some way, superior. I dont think tool use makes us a stronger species, better adapted to survive. It sure looks like our poor planet would be better off without some of our "tools". We are clever monkeys, but not wise. I think its rather counterproductive to keep trying to find where bigfoot fots on our family tree when perhaps he has his own divergent branch. Just thinking out loud on the bus on the way to work. Im seeing lots of damaged humans and I'm sure some are quite primitive lol. I cant wait to get my truck fixed omg. I proposed something similar in my Homo Erectus thread. Except the part that it grew a 1500 cc brain..... I do not believe there is any evidence it’s as smart as we are. But if it’s descended from Homo Habilis? It’s still apart of our genus. But as the video shows there is criteria for what includes or excludes a new species being named in the genus Homo. A 600 cc brain is just one of those criteria. As far as humans being bad for the environment? I think humans have it way better than our ancient ancestors did. We have it pretty good. And it’s because they domesticated livestock, plants and wild lands for food production. Our whole civilization rests on everything from wheat to dairies to poultry to beef and pork production. Plus fruit and vegetable production. I think that was super wise. And there are plenty of places left on the earth if a person wants to check out from civilization and go live a subsistence lifestyle. But it’s a very hard way to live, and life is short.
norseman Posted June 24, 2019 Admin Author Posted June 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Huntster said: I agree. But the hunters among men are a bit different. The only fire I want or need is the one that provides heat, and modern technology allows me to use one that is more contained than a campfire. It's the sleeping bag that really ties me up. I feel like a burrito in it. But the 10mm is within reach. If I was as smart as Albert Ostman, it would be in the sleeping bag with me, but he didn't have a tent......... BIG TIME! Dogs are the best early warning system there is in the outdoors.........usually. In my worse bear experience, my dog failed completely, then the damned bear pressed us because he wanted the dog. I think mankind is all over the map. Some are in worlds that don't even exist. I'd even say that most are in such places. Mrs. Huntster is pretty tough. I do pamper her when in the woods, and I probably shouldn't, but I do it to encourage her to go with me. She has no sense of direction whatsoever. If we went out i to the wilderness and I dropped dead, she's as good as dead. She wouldn't know north from west. I gave up on that years ago. I keep quiet at home and dump my words here on the Bigfoot Forum. I've already been divorced from here, and behold! I'm remarried! It was easy! !!! You look fine! She's being a woman! (Don't you dare tell her I wrote that...........) Does Mrs. Norseman hunt? Mrs. Huntster does, but non-edible critters (which only exist in good times) are safe from her. She would have let that pack rat go, then later when it took up in the corner of the shop, would have told me to kill it. I don't have a good handle on this. Relationships for me are an individual thing. If it's a pecking order, I'm not in. F**k that. I don't peck. It's all personal. If we don't mesh, we never will. Exactly! It's still that way in Bush Alaska. No doubt about it. I have no business living without my beloved Mrs. Huntster, our children, and now our grandchildren to give me meaning. Otherwise I'm just another germ. Tents have saved my life. Fires? Well, they've made life better, and they can certainly save my life if I don't have a tent.........or if it's -30 degrees even in the tent......... My wife had me buy her a bow. She practiced with it in the back yard on a foam deer. She wasn’t the best shot. She shot the legs off of the target and it fell over and I had to stand it back up and fix it. She went hunting at a couple of blinds I had set up for her. But I was in the oilfield mostly then, so my son went with her. He basically said that deer came and went but she never drew back on anything. It’s legal to shoot a doe here in archery season. But she simply could not bring herself to kill anything. She said she wanted a bear. So I took her bear hunting and I blew on a rabbit call from one side of the county to the other. I eventually called in a big black bear for her. And she acted stuptified that I had called in the bear. Later she admitted that she thought the rabbit call sounded ridiculous and would never work. She had a bad back then and was slow getting out of the rig so I gave her a pass. But now I think she was hoping it would just run off. And it did... It’s like pushing a wet noodle. Kinda like me and washing dishes or laundry. 1 1
hiflier Posted June 24, 2019 Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, norseman said: Kinda like me and washing dishes or laundry. Oh Man, I hear you on that one LOL. I will admit to vacuuming though because my spouse said she married me because I do vacuum floors Go figure. I re-read my post and realized something critically important. We know the markers that separate one Primate species from another. In other words, we know the markers that separate one Homo species from another Homo species. In fact we have entire genomes of just about everything in the World GenBank now. What I'm getting at is we would KNOW the genetic markers that indicate different characteristics even in primates. So what would be expected to be the markers that would say Sasquatch? i.e., would there be a marker SHOWING a switched off development of the prefrontal cortex for instance, or nocturnal eyesight? Or a fully haired body or large growth? If those markers were theorized then could a sample be revisited with a specific process that could look or test for such things? A Tapetum Lucidum perhaps which may show a relaxed opsin gene? Maybe "9dot" could comment on this. Or another member biologist? Edited June 24, 2019 by hiflier
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