Why can't we find and study Bigfoot?

[hiflier]

14 minutes ago, georgerm said:

How do we get past the DNA testing that always points to human contamination? We discussed markers that need to be looked at during a more exhaustive DNA analysis. The markers should point to another kind of primate other than humans

 

A very salient point! This is where it becomes time for the term "primers" to be explained. Primers are designed to target a certain species by zeroing in on a specific gene, or protein that a particular gene expresses. There are numerous primers already designed to detect certain organisms with new primers being added to the pile all the time. So getting past Human contamination is getting easier. Since Humans and Great Apes are so similar, especially when it comes to the Chimpanzee then it takes being able to target a gene or protein that is specific to either species.

 

There are primers for Chimp DNA detection, and there are primers for Human DNA detection. As far as we know, there is NO Sasquatch DNA (in the GenBank!) so how does one create a primer to detect the creature's DNA? After everything I've presented on this Forum as the solution maybe you or someone would now be able to answer that question? I'll give you a hint: One doesn't HAVE to create a new primer for Sasquatch detection.

 

This goes as a direct answer to the question you composed as the title for this thread   

Edited February 23, 2020 by hiflier

[Huntster]

1 hour ago, SWWASAS said:

.......Should bigfoot be accepted like the mountain gorilla is, then the pool of expert speakers would rapidly dry up to those few who actually get in the field, like Fossey did,  establish contact  and find out something about the species.   .     Most of what is presented now is conjecture.     That they exist,  what they are, their origins,  their relationship to man,   all are conjectore that anyone can engage in,   speak at conferences,  write books,  tell stories,  have blogs, and most importantly people are making money from many aspects.     Most of that goes away with acceptance by science..........

 

It doesn't go away. It just changes who makes the money, and how. You pointed that out very well. And, really, some of that (without the money making in carnival style) might have already occurred, or even is still occurring.

 

.......While your crusade for discovery is applaudable,   I am not sure that discovery would benefit bigfoot.    It will likely happen at some point anyway.  Might as well be you as anyone else,    The species would become mired in government red tape.  

People like me, likely restricted from attempting contact,  and large chunks of woods become a forest preserve........

 

That government might use the species as an excuse to justify tyrannical land use policies is a common fear among many, and I'm absolutely positive that government would codify or administratively declare some lands as some sort of sasquatch preserve, but they can't easily prevent people from accessing said lands on foot. They can restrict vehicular access, but walking in is almost guaranteed. It's difficult for them to ban all access. Military lands (due to the dangers of unexploded ordnance) or some watershed areas (due to pollution fears) are off limits. But even then, sneaking in on foot is easy, and criminal penalties for doing so are almost non-existent.

 

[georgerm]

2 hours ago, hiflier said:

 

A very salient point! This is where it becomes time for the term "primers" to be explained. Primers are designed to target a certain species by zeroing in on a specific gene, or protein that a particular gene expresses. There are numerous primers already designed to detect certain organisms with new primers being added to the pile all the time. So getting past Human contamination is getting easier. Since Humans and Great Apes are so similar, especially when it comes to the Chimpanzee then it takes being able to target a gene or protein that is specific to either species.

 

There are primers for Chimp DNA detection, and there are primers for Human DNA detection. As far as we know, there is NO Sasquatch DNA (in the GenBank!) so how does one create a primer to detect the creature's DNA? After everything I've presented on this Forum as the solution maybe you or someone would now be able to answer that question? I'll give you a hint: One doesn't HAVE to create a new primer for Sasquatch detection.

 

This goes as a direct answer to the question you composed as the title for this thread   

 

If a creek drainage coming off a mountain is tested for e-DNA, and one test shows primers for a human. We know a human lives in a cabin high on the hill. Then another e-DNA test shows different primers for another species of primate living up on the mountain then it's bigfoot or an escaped monkey! 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by georgerm

[hiflier]

In a sense yes. Primers are what one uses to seek out the DNA elements one is targeting. Primers are not the results, they are only a means used to zero in on a selected gene, or the gene-expressed protein, one is looking for. The trick to the whole thing is KNOWING which gene or expressed gene protein is specific to which organism. Science knows that NOTCH2NL's that don't express proteins belong ONLY to Gorillas and Chimpanzees, Bonobos, and Bili Apes. And Science knows that NOTCH2NLA, B, and C do express proteins and only belong to Humans. All we need are the primers that will identify one group of genes or the other.

 

Basically if one is using an e-DNA primer that detects say, the Human NOTCH2NLB, but the gene isn't present in a supposed Human DNA contaminated sample then the sample isn't Human contaminated. Because if it's missing the specific Human "B" variation one was looking for? Then it's a primate yes, but not Human primate. The cool thing here is that everything one needs to do this kind of environmental sampling already exists. It will only take someone implementing the idea in the field to see what's really out there, and where.  

[Arvedis]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:34 PM, hiflier said:

 

I will take the high road here. I would like to know how Dr. Disotell knows what novel primate DNA would even look like? What is it that he would specifically look for in order to make his novel primate determination? I would like to be informed of that little detail, wouldn't you? This is where I get a wee bit testy, because people don't fill in those blanks. And people don't think to ask D. Disotell especially about it.

 

I would but, historically, he doesn't answer my emails. Someone who knows Disotell personally could? Or someone who knows Dr. Meldrum (he doesn't answer my emails either) personally could have him ask Dr. Disotell?

 

Knowing you, I'll answer for you, :"That would be useless." There, that should make you happy. It plays right into your negative wheelhouse

 

I think you have found this podcast since the time you write this post, but just in case, Dr. Disotell lays it all out on a MonsterTalk podcast from 2009.

 

I actually have a lot more respect for him now.  You just have to put up with him being outspoken. He really doesn't care about studying BF as much as he apparently loves his ego.  He does have a PhD from Harvard so he's got that kind of vibe even though sometimes he has a mohawk. Maybe he wants people to think he's a rebel even though he is not. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Arvedis

[Arvedis]

Cliff was on a podcast recently, I think it was Nite Callers, and he mentioned a conversation he had with Disotell. Dr. Todd apparently told Cliff in place of a Bigfoot body as definitive evidence you can just a) provide a valid DNA sample, b) valid footprints for the Bigfoot whose DNA was collected, AND c) a valid photo such as from a trail cam for the same subject who left the print and sample.

 

Cliff seemed to feel this was an excellent message to steer folks away from a pro kill position. Just provide the proper scientific requirements and problem solved. I was only listening in passing so I had to replay that part. I'll get the link and timestamp.

 

For proving validity of an unknown species, that strategy makes sense. I found it kind of strange though, that he said this because the entire reason people want to kill a Bigfoot is because retrieving dna and photos is mostly fruitless. So chicken or the egg Dr. Odd Todd?

 

[NatFoot]

45 minutes ago, Arvedis said:

Cliff was on a podcast recently, I think it was Nite Callers, and he mentioned a conversation he had with Disotell. Dr. Todd apparently told Cliff in place of a Bigfoot body as definitive evidence you can just a) provide a valid DNA sample, b) valid footprints for the Bigfoot whose DNA was collected, AND c) a valid photo such as from a trail cam for the same subject who left the print and sample.

 

Cliff seemed to feel this was an excellent message to steer folks away from a pro kill position. Just provide the proper scientific requirements and problem solved. I was only listening in passing so I had to replay that part. I'll get the link and timestamp.

 

For proving validity of an unknown species, that strategy makes sense. I found it kind of strange though, that he said this because the entire reason people want to kill a Bigfoot is because retrieving dna and photos is mostly fruitless. So chicken or the egg Dr. Odd Todd?

 

 

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry.

 

And probably even more impossible than getting a body.

[Arvedis]

2 hours ago, NatFoot said:

 

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry.

 

And probably even more impossible than getting a body.

 

 

I am surprised he did not go into it more and turn Disotell's guidance into something achievable. Instead, he is saying (essentially), if Dr. Todd tells us to do it this way, we should pay attention to that.  The problem is, Disotell isn't just interested in BF. He is a dedicated scientist which means he intends to throw out anything that does not fit the parameters of his expensive lab equipment. Everyone in bigfootery knows how difficult it is to get any kind of evidence at all so what use is it to think it is reasonable to expect BF evidence can be obtained the same as it is for any other elusive "animal" like a snow leopard. 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Arvedis

[norseman]

5 hours ago, NatFoot said:

 

That's ridiculous. I'm sorry.

 

And probably even more impossible than getting a body.

All I heard was...

 

A) Definitive DNA sample

B) Definitive DNA sample

C) Definitive DNA sample

 

“Valid” photo.... snicker, snicker!

[Arvedis]

He goes into eDNA and Disotell around 49:00 mins to around 52:00.  I said valid, he says good quality footage from 1 area.

 

I realize it is hard to do fact checking in your head when in conversations but if If he has Dr. Todd's ear then he should  get clear instructions from him so researchers can collect and successfully process samples at a lab.  Dr. Todd is BF-curious but he needs definitive proof that his team's expensive testing time is not wasted if he agrees to another round from some credible source.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Arvedis

[norseman]

3 hours ago, Arvedis said:

He goes into eDNA and Disotell around 49:00 mins to around 52:00.  I said valid, he says good quality footage from 1 area.

 

I realize it is hard to do fact checking in your head when in conversations but if If he has Dr. Todd's ear then he should  get clear instructions from him so researchers can collect and successfully process samples at a lab.  Dr. Todd is BF-curious but he needs definitive proof that his team's expensive testing time is not wasted if he agrees to another round from some credible source.

 

 

Disotell already did that on the million dollar Bigfoot Hunt. I’m sure you can catch episodes on Netflix or even YouTube.

[Arvedis]

9 hours ago, norseman said:

Disotell already did that on the million dollar Bigfoot Hunt. I’m sure you can catch episodes on Netflix or even YouTube.

 

That's a show that doesn't deserve watching. It's crap. I'm sure Dr. Todd has pointed out his test strategy in multiple (other) places. It just needs some fine tuning and presentation. 

[norseman]

6 minutes ago, Arvedis said:

 

That's a show that doesn't deserve watching. It's crap. I'm sure Dr. Todd has pointed out his test strategy in multiple (other) places. It just needs some fine tuning and presentation. 

You sure are judgmental for content your asking for....

 

I watched it. And that is how I KNOW he has taught Bigfooters proper specimen collection as well as completely novel ways to collect DNA.

 

Fast forward through the drama..... Or don’t.

[SWWASAS]

The Travel channel on Dish has been running Survivorman BIgfoot segments.     They are old and have some content with Todd Standing.     Stroud spent over $1000 having a movie company make some expensive stompers.    That really ticks me off in that it demonstrates that it is possible to produce quality fakes and brings into questtion anything found.         Stroud showed them to Meldrum and Bindernagel without identifying them as fakes until Meldum noticed that the prints were mirror image of each other.   Meldrum was visibly angry.    I would put Stroud on my list of people not to trust if I were Meldrum..    Stroud could use a lot of help if he is serious but at this point I would not want to have anything to do with him because of his association with Standing.    The company you keep can sure soil your reputation.  

[norseman]

1 hour ago, SWWASAS said:

The Travel channel on Dish has been running Survivorman BIgfoot segments.     They are old and have some content with Todd Standing.     Stroud spent over $1000 having a movie company make some expensive stompers.    That really ticks me off in that it demonstrates that it is possible to produce quality fakes and brings into questtion anything found.         Stroud showed them to Meldrum and Bindernagel without identifying them as fakes until Meldum noticed that the prints were mirror image of each other.   Meldrum was visibly angry.    I would put Stroud on my list of people not to trust if I were Meldrum..    Stroud could use a lot of help if he is serious but at this point I would not want to have anything to do with him because of his association with Standing.    The company you keep can sure soil your reputation.  

Yes but Meldrum and Bindernagel courted him (Standing) as well?

 

And Stroud was testing the experts on camera. That’s not the same as a hoax.