The Ketchum Report

[Guest BFSleuth]

I think you need to read up on how long it takes to sequence Melissa, it's odd that it took Dr. Ketchum this long but it's possible the work was done long ago and it has taken a year and a half to try to find a publisher...too many "maybe's" at this point. Dr. Sykes is not doing any nuclear sequencing, only mtDNA and looking at specific genes that will identify a species, that is why he finished quickly. With Dr. Ketchum it was a little bit more in depth.

It's true that the process of sequencing has sped up. I wonder whether the process of getting samples out to 13 labs for confirmation was done all at once, or in parts. If it was done in parts, then that may have delayed the process. I'd imagine that there might also have been some sticking points early on, figuring out the correct way to proceed and trying to figure out what the heck she had.... cogitating on it before going out for confirmation lab work. Sounds like there was also a need to bring in other specialists to the team to round out the work.

I don't think a video is going to add weight to the study results, unless the BF(s) are in the act of performing superhuman feats.

Given today's technology, and the ability to create lifelike creature suits, a few hairy actors sitting around grooming one another could very well invite more detraction from the study rather than attraction to it.

I don't really understand why any video would be associated with the Ketchum study in the first place. The DNA results are what will tell the story.

Earlier this year it was reported that Ketchum was asking for additional video or photographs to add to the study. A journal is a publication and I'm sure they would want additional pizzaz to spice up the report and to let readers know what the DNA results are supposed to show. In some cases I believe the images are linked to the submitted samples, but can really confirm anything about that. I'm sure images taken during sample collection and documenting how the samples were collected will also be important, to establish where the tissue or hair samples came from.

[Guest]

It was something like August 2010 when MK said she was preparing a peer reviewed report of part human DNA. How much longer does she need?

Then the Sierra Shootings happened in October.

[Guest]

Paulides said 7-10 days one week ago.

Still think we are on track ?

As i recall, ( didn't look it up )Sally said in a post way back...... That there could be something like pre release proceedings or Melba could start the proceedings Tuesday or so on the week of the release of the Embargo....

As I recall

[Guest]

Then the Sierra Shootings happened in October.

And she's still claiming human, I don't see where the steak changed anything. Infact the more I think about it, the more it looks like she came into this study with a preconceived result.

[Guest]

If it doesn't come out by Wed Paulides was obviously wrong so why would someone who has been calling it "his" project not know when it's coming out?

Ill check back in on Thursday.

[Guest]

^On the one hand, it wouldn't be the first time he was wrong...on the other, both him and Lindsay have been right about some things we never would have thought they would...

Edited December 4, 2012 by Mulder

[Guest]

Thats just the point. Why would he ever be wrong? If he is that close to the project he should know everything that is going on. The only other explanation is that he is being given bad or misleading information by someone close to the project. If that is the case well then there is really no hope at all for this project.

[Guest BartloJays]

^{Hey guys, wanted to clarify some things as I haven’t been on here in awhile and just caught up with some of the comments in this thread.}

^{First off, regarding the boots, there’s multiple reasons that they haven’t been tested yet though we are pursuing this now. I think most of you know by now how I feel about Melba from a credibility standpoint (I’ll get to that in a second) and to be honest it’s been that way since I’ve been involved and regretfully, my personal concerns have only increased over time for multiple reasons I think all of you would understand to some extent, if not agree entirely.}

^{With respect to the boots, since they’ve been in my custody they are not rotting away somewhere, they are appropriately stored and the potential forensic blood evidence is either present and retrievable, or it’s not and wasn’t by the time they reached my custody, and that’s according to every person with diagnostic knowledge and experience I’ve spoken with as a precaution. Having said that, and knowing what I’ve learned about what the labs may have to contend with (potential mold degradation, environmental and other contaminants) I’m not highly optimistic that they will realistically yield anything, especially considering they were worn by Justin many times after the purported shooting event. However, they are the only “non-circumstantialâ€evidence available if the story is accurate and if we’re to assume for example, that the tissue sample, through testing, doesn’t end up corroborating the shooting event. Then as someone related to earlier, the boots are the only tie left as the event will remain forever anecdotal in nature. A matter of fact, although technically speaking,“contradictory evidence†doesn’t exist in this case, I’d contend with people’s lack of attention spans, short memories and penchant for not following details, the lasting perception would be “less-then anecdotalâ€... without corroborative evidence.}

^{Regarding the hold-up of why the boots haven’t been tested to date, it goes back to the beginning when I first received them from Justin, who turned down money to give them to me because according to him, he knew I would do the right thing with them eventually due to my passion. Admittedly, my first concern wasn’t running off and testing them yet, it was keeping them from Ketchum because I didn’t trust her and knowing how important they potentially were I thought it would’ve been foolish to gamble with them… and I did that on ALL of our behalves.....just in case. There was also anticipation created by her about this paper coming out at any time (even back then) and my first thoughts were to make sure her methodologies were authenticated and validated before trusting her with something so important; if so, then putting my personal feelings aside, at least I would know her science wasn’t flawed and I would’ve felt comfortable handing them to her to maybe put a nail in the coffin...only with “post†peer-review acceptance however. Afterall, if the tissue checked out with the purported genome that was performed, the combination of both the tissue and successfully retrieving the juvey’s blood in the boots (direct parent to child genetic link) would be extremely difficult to refute.}

^{Well… no paper came out and for now let’s just say things were said, leaks and statements were publicly made that I wasn’t exactly impressed with…. enough to believe that maybe… just maybe, there was no paper. From there it was two-fold, one was Tyler and I, with Justin’s urging, based on some of his experiences and beliefs with her (remember, this after it was leaked his sample was the centerpiece of her study and a full genome had been performed on the tissue) unilaterally began getting the sample tested at multiple labs (starting one well before the other). According to the labs, although one of them had no idea what they were contracted to test, they preferred to examine and try and determine the source of the tissue before moving onto the boots. We had no problem with that as we needed to audition the labs as well to make sure they were specialists we wanted to work with and we were getting the attention and communication we expected. Also, keep in mind, and you’ll see for yourself (don’t take my word for it) if you take the time to READ all of the email communications between us and the labs we will be providing (with dates on them) in addition to the full lab reports, that we did not anticipate this to be a 6-month process.}

^{Finally, Tyler and I are absorbing the costs of those independent examinations and may be coming out of pocket for the boots. This year for both of us, “cost†is another issue, but we will be moving forward very quickly on them regardless, hence we don’t owe anybody a timeframe that like the tissue, could be entirely out of our discretion anyhow. .}

To answer a few more points brought up a few pages back-

Derek and I are very close friends and I think I speak for both of us when I say that there’s a very deep respect between us as I think he’s a huge asset to this field and a great friend. However, this is just an area where we’re coming from two different places and see things through two different sets of eyes, but it doesn’t change our relationship as even if we don’t agree (remember we’re each privy to some different information and experiences as well) he knows and respects exactly what my concerns are and have been, knows I’m a highly principled individual obsessed with doing things the right way… on everybody’s behalf, in addition to knowing how passionate and serious I am about this subject. On the other side, I can assure you Derek’s also a highly principled person, who’s worked tirelessly to get some great samples into the study and help confirm this species. No one works harder in the field.

To further clarify where my comments come from in regards to Ketchum’s press release (minus any substantiation) should be very obvious on the surface. First off, all of those that take this field very seriously (this isn’t a game to me) and are passionate about species recognition, we suffer the repercussions for what I thought was not only a premature (if applicable), but a highly self-serving decision for her to make such a perceived “bold†move without “anyâ€prior validation.

I’m sorry, but anyone who thinks that I teamed up with Moneymaker because of our longtime friendship (I talk to Cliff and Bo much more often while they’re on the road btw) and this is some “BFRO collective stance,â€is either an idiot, doesn’t know me at all personally or my passion, or, doesn’t acknowledge or recall history very well. Through actions and stances I’ve taken in the past, I’m pretty notorious as a free thinker and contrarian when it comes to evidential claims, especially when I sense or smell ********. I want people to know that not only am I not happy about how she’s handled something very important to all of us to this point through words and actions (or lack therof and frankly.. so should you), but most importantly I think I have a “responsibility†to caution others not to hold their respective breaths. I also want to remind people (with short memories) of the disassociation between us and her because it’s something I’m very proud of and you’ll probably understand that a lot better down the road. In that regard, if she succeeds or not, makes absolutely no difference because I know that anyone else in my position “today,†that’s walked in my shoes, may not completely agree with me 100%, but they sure as hell wouldn’t blame me….or publicly admit it or challenge me if they did knowing the whole story from "my" perspective.

I shake my head because knowing that she’s in possession of some great samples from some outstanding researchers and there’s some really ignorant persons would think I’d go out of my way to discredit her to win some race, take some perceived organizational stance, defend some mythical ape theory (as if I give a **** what they actually are) or that I work for the Government (LOL).

Do you know… even how I feel about her and her ethics personally, what I’d give for her to be successful with say, the hybridization origin theory she’s claimed to have proven through testing? I’d give my right arm ….I’d literally give my right arm…and everyone who knows me in this field as a peer, person or friend, knows that. My closest snake, if you will…my lifelong passion and objective.. is “discoveryâ€â€¦. period! And I don’t care who or how to be honest with you. If I help facilitate discovery…. well how wonderful! If not, I’ll still be the happiest guy in the world… are you kidding me? However, you’d be a selfish, gambling fool to ignore the red flags I’ve had and fail to prevent all eggs from going in one basket.

Our objective (Tyler and I with Justin’s persistence) was to contract independent labs, let the chips fall where they may and give you what we all deserve…110% transparency. We did not test samples, we’re not responsible for the results of the testing (we’ve never given you a guarantee or promise…NEVER) and furthermore, we’re not interpreting results of the samples when we share them. I don’t think that’s our job or our expertise. What we’re doing is giving you that transparency, setting a standard with respect to how researchers interact with labs they contract in the future by providing you with a protocol roadmap (written by Tyler) based off of our many trials and errors through this lengthy process.

Remember, Tyler and I should be the last people she ever needs to worry about if it turns out there's any deviations in results from hers. At the end of the day, her methodologies and work must meet every challenge and be replicable…especially with respect to the subject matter (the claim), perception of improbability and perceived lack of viability. If not, you can take that paper (if it exists…I’m not convinced) and wipe your ass with it.

Bottom line…when I look in the mirror the rest of my life I want to be proud of the reflection I see and I sleep well these days knowing I’m doing the right things for everybody who shares this passion with me

[Guest]

Glad I stopped in this morning, great read, thank you BartloJays

[Guest]

I think you need to read up on how long it takes to sequence Melissa, it's odd that it took Dr. Ketchum this long but it's possible the work was done long ago and it has taken a year and a half to try to find a publisher...too many "maybe's" at this point. Dr. Sykes is not doing any nuclear sequencing, only mtDNA and looking at specific genes that will identify a species, that is why he finished quickly. With Dr. Ketchum it was a little bit more in depth.

Actually, that was my point. I didn't want to come right out and say it though. So - is Sykes done? Do we know that for sure?

[Guest slimwitless]

To answer a few more points brought up a few pages back-

Thanks, Bart. I appreciate it. Just so you know, some of us are trying our level-best to get the details right. This last week or so has shown me it's going to be a challenge for the truth to come out; even when the truth is right in front of our eyes. People don't like details.

I know you're waiting for your lab results before releasing the data so I'll ask this carefully. Do you know enough yet to either refute or corroborate what little we know about Ketchum's findings or is the jury still out? Do you think the labs know what they're dealing with and our they taking this latest press release into consideration? I'm also wondering if Sykes has a piece of the shooting sample. Justin posted that he was going to send one but I guess I don't know for certain that ever happened.

Edited December 4, 2012 by slimwitless

[Guest]

Thats just the point. Why would he ever be wrong? If he is that close to the project he should know everything that is going on. The only other explanation is that he is being given bad or misleading information by someone close to the project. If that is the case well then there is really no hope at all for this project.

That doesn't follow, given the amount of effort Ketchum has gone to to keep the details confidential prior to this point.

^{Hey guys, wanted to clarify some things as I haven’t been on here in awhile and just caught up with some of the comments in this thread.}

Thank you for the update on the boot situation.

You do mention one thing that I'm sure will wind up being held against your independently funded analysis of the "steak"

According to the labs, although one of them had no idea what they were contracted to test

If only one of them got the sample "blind", that breaches the confirmation protocols.

Moving on.

On the subject of Ketchum, you offer nothing new. More claims. No evidence to back them up. You talk about "transparency" in the same post you fill with innuendo, hints, and shades of meaning.

What specificially are you saying she's done wrong scientifically?

What evidence do you proffer to support those claims?

Otherwise, your post is just more baseless Ketchum bashing.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Mulder

[Guest]

Mulder,

I would suggest taking note of Bart's statement that...

" At the end of the day, her methodologies and work must meet every challenge and be replicable… especially with respect to the subject matter (the claim), perception of improbability and perceived lack of viability."

This will be center stage about what is different between how studies were performed and the results they achieved.

If you take off your blinders for a second you may realize your accusations towards Bart apply as well to Ketchum. Although the big difference you're missing is that Bart hasn't made a single claim about the results of their study.

[Guest]

This Thread sometimes brings to mind this:

[southernyahoo]

I'm curious how one can claim that it is proper to practice complete transparency in one study while declaring it unprofessional to release any info about the results of another study prior to "substantiation". By what standard are we talking about now? Peer review, or some lab reports brought forth by a footer? If there is some difference, how would that be "substantiated" and how would that be Dr. Ketchum's problem absent any "peer review"?