The Ketchum Report

[Guest]

She said BF was *born* 15K years ago...wanna debate that?

Quote from Ketchum's press release: "Researchers’ extensive DNA sequencing suggests that the legendary Sasquatch is a human relative that arose approximately 15,000 years ago as a hybrid cross of modern Homo sapiens with an unknown primate species." (emphasis mine)

It sounds to me as though she's giving a date of 15,000 years ago as an approximation of the earliest time by which the Sasquatch was fully developed as a distinct species. She names the Sasquatch - a (presumably) distinct species, as arising 15,000 years ago. There's no telling, then, how long before the establishment of the Sasquatch as a species the first hybridization event could/would/may have taken place.

[bipedalist]

That's an interesting idea.

Unfortunately it seems the prevailing view is that if Ketchum is wrong about anything, she must be wrong about everything.

Yep, like modern paleoanthropology, hominology, paleoarchaeology, primatology has all their theoretical ducks in a row and never change their hypotheses/theories based on new information, developments, findings or new views of the same old information based on dna findings.

[Guest]

I have no clue how this all will work out, but, man, its a thriller, right now!

[Guest TH68]

Yes it has been an interesting day. What we can glean from all of this I believe is that Dr. Ketchum's work is still in peer review in the U.S. My guess is that the rewrite last requested heavily replaces "bigfoot, sasquatch, forest people, wildman", etc. with "unknown Hominid". This will hopefully satisfy the U.S. journal and give it the confidence to publish this historic work. I don't see that publication hinges on photos. This is a study based on DNA analysis and I assume the Journal is not Nat. Geo. Leave the photos for a Magazine and publish the DNA analysis. Then let everyone have at it.

On a different note, if the Sykes/Oxford study is only concerned with mitochondrial DNA, then we pretty much know what it is going to find. Human DNA. The conclusion will be the samples were either contaminated or the donors were modern human. So, if that is the result and it comes out before Dr. Ketchum's paper is published, I guess we fold our tents and go home? I don't think so. I would imagine that Dr. Sykes and his people will do what Dr. Ketchum did and analyze the nuclear DNA. They will need to develop their own markers(?) but surely with the expertise at their disposal it can, and will be done. My prediction is that their results match Dr. Ketchum's, assuming the samples are good. Then science can apply the results to try and identify what this unknown hominid is and how and where it lives. We can look back and ask how we ignored all the indicators that it is real for all this time. (footprints, sightings, film, video, audio, etc)

This subject is truly controversial and quite the mystery. I believe we are on the verge of discovery but it will take a courageous journal to finally publish this work, assuming the science is valid and I am assuming that it is based upon what has been revealed so far.

[Guest]

This thread reminds me of the Baldwin sisters on the Waltons who had no idea what the "recipe" really was......

[Guest]

I would imagine that Dr. Sykes and his people will do what Dr. Ketchum did and analyze the nuclear DNA.

One would hope.

[southernyahoo]

Hmmm, this is confusing.

I don't think that the proposal thus far says that there was a mixed breeding between humans and something that originated 15,000 years ago. Humans bred with something else, further removed from modern humans than Neanderthals or Denisovan (Denise's ovums?), but still closely related enough that they could actually do it, and make babies. Something still kind of human-like, probably pretty hairy if the resulting crosses ended up as bigfoot people. But whatever that was the human women bred with, must have been around for quite some time, held over without becoming extinct by 15,000 years ago.

But then, there's not a big record of non-modern human's surviving that recently. Were they rare and elusive, just like bigfoots are now? Not a lot of them maybe, not a lot of remains to last until now, to clue us in to their existence? But enough of them to interbreed with modern style humans in sufficient numbers to permanently stamp their mitochondria with human DNA? Seems like there would have had to be enough matings to get that sort of permanence in their genes.

So is it possible that whatever bigfoot is, it might resemble whatever that paternal hominin was, for all intents and purposes still kind of like what it was back before the hybridizing events. Some hairy wild form of human, or hominin that was closely related enough to humans to actually breed with them (us)? That bigfoots ARE that mystery primate that somehow brought enough women into the fold to season their gene pool with our influence? But still mostly maintaining their original "primitive" hominin form?

I'm just trying to find a way to paint a picture that allows human and unknown primate hybrids to make some sort of sense, that doesn't fall off into spiritual, or extraterrestrial intervention. Heck, maybe that's what it was, but that'd be asking a lot to buy into. A question for the geneticists would be how many women to primate breedings would it take to stamp bigfoot DNA with a permanent mark?

We may not have the whole picture as to what bigfoot is, since we are still looking for the original maternal line. If that went extinct then it would argue for the idea of very strong natural selection of the hybridized type. Bigfoot seems extremely well adapted with great intelligence. The smartest animal on the planet, or the wildest man you'll ever come across.

[Guest Scout1959]

Honestly guys IMHO you've got a troll in here so please don't feed him cupcakes.... Okay?

[Guest]

"We may not have the whole picture as to what bigfoot is, since we are still looking for the original maternal line."

You mean paternal line.

[Guest]

So, if we assume this story we hear is true- woman mated with some other type of human ancestor then what could that other thing have been? Not Denisovan or Neanderthal. Erectus? Paranthropus? Ergaster? What type of being crossed with human would make a 8ft tall 700 lb upright hairy thing with massive bulk?

[Guest]

This has nothing to do with MK and everything to do with BF. There are victims of our own society. Victims because of an enounter with an unknown species. How many times must you hear about how bad it can be to talk about your experience with peers who will view you as "that guy".

There was so much hope and energy put behind MK and her report. Not because people want the data so badly... they want to be free of the baggage. She chose to bring her report to this level. Not me, not any of us who do not like how she "rolls". We are just pointing to the red flags others do not want to see. We are not pointing them out because we want her to fail. They are obstacles to the goal of the entire endeavor. She has sailed her own ship.

I would have given you a plus 1 - but I am out.

Since this began - I have (in large part) remained silent. I think people might find one article on my blog I have written about this whole situation. My main comment --- Melba needs to either stop talking or hire someone who knows how to speak in public. Instead - we have gotten the exact opposite. I won't ever believe the "information release" from Igor was not planned and approved by Melba herself. Why? Because this is what happens when a month or two goes by and no one is talking about Melba or her work.

The use of the words, "Forest People" is not a coincidence - and is directly related to my comments fearing Melba, is allowing those close to her, to influence her and the direction of her study. That is not my fault - or the fault of anyone who is noting this. Igor spoke publicly because he said - people have sat back in this community and waited a long time for information.. That was his reason and he did not apologize for telling people what he read in the study.

The telling part for me was when Melba responded by saying from the start - the leak was not Igor's fault.... If that's the case, who's fault was it? Her defense of Igor made no sense to me at all.

I don't care where this paper is published. I just want to see it get published and all the "leaks" to stop. It's very frustrating for those of us who have sat back quietly and said next to nothing for 4 plus years. No one but Melba is responsible for the reputation she has or does not have at this point in time.

Melba said - the science will speak for itself. That sounds exactly like what I said in that one article. If the science will speak for itself - then she needs to stop talking about it. She has a choice - either respond to everything (as has been the status quo) or say nothing... Until the paper is published what does she really have to say? Has she said anything we really want to hear? All we have is more questions and more drama. She certainly isn't helping answer anything. What does she have to gain from these leaks? Funding. Which is neither good or bad - the work she is doing is expensive. But, that is one very good reason for the constant leaks and keeping this in the forefront of everyone's thoughts. I can't prove that is the reason - but it is one good reason and is not a stretch to consider and not a slam on Melba or her work.

Of course all of this is just my opinion. But the problems Melba finds herself in - are her doing - and not the fault of anyone outside her own camp.

[Guest]

Also bugging me- if a woman crosses with a different type of human making a new hybrid, wouldn't it have to happen twice and produce 2 offspring (or once and have twins?) Hybrid human would have to breed with hybrid human to make a new line. Otherwise if a one time hookup happened and the thing grew up and bred with a normal human, the line would only be 1/4 unknown hominid. See what I mean?

[Guest]

"We may not have the whole picture as to what bigfoot is, since we are still looking for the original maternal line."

You mean paternal line.

Actually, it is the maternal line. We would have the male line nailed down if a male BF was fully sequenced(as claimed). As far as the maternal line goes, it seems that they keep running into human females via the mtDNA.

[Guest]

I believe "Eve" was actually a population of about 1000 females or so? So, doesn't it follow that a hybridization event must occur in a population of many human females and males (of the unknown) and that the mix through tens of hundreds of individuals then becomes a "line?" And it also seems that anything around, besides the (and it's just three and one respectively) genome of Neanderthal and Denisova, are hominin candidates for the males? I would have to look up all the concurrent hominins known through the fossil record, but it's potentially six or so? The problem perhaps the 15,000 ybp date...but I don't think we necessarily have the youngest fossils of many hominins, so to me it is possible that erectus and others survived longer than we "know." Certainly Bigfoots have.

Like many I need the paper to begin to understand (I'll have to look up words and ideas as I go) ..and others to interpret. Is it possible one singe female can birth an entire population? If she had girls and all survived and selected over others with the strongest males? and so on? That they selected within their population continued breeding with the females carrying the human mtDNA? Hard to imagine that prehistoric world...

just as a curiosity, 95% (or close) of the dog breeds existing today were created in just the last 200 years, and primarily from the intense breeding popularity in the 19th century. Also, personality in dogs transfers about 75% of the time, and coat color just 25%. I have two siblings from one of the oldest breeds on earth (some reports go back 5,000 ybp) - Anatolian Guardians and the instinct is deep, not your typical dogs...you didn't need to know that!

BE has a string of tabloid articles today (what's new?) that really push the envelope on this as...really depressing gossip.

Edited December 7, 2012 by apehuman

[Guest]

I believe "Eve" was actually a population of about 1000 females or so? So, doesn't it follow that a hybridization event must occur in a population of many human females and males (of the unknown) and that the mix through tens of hundreds of individuals then becomes a "line?" And it also seems that anything around, besides the (and it's just three and one respectively) genome of Neanderthal and Denisova, are hominin candidates for the males? I would have to look up all the concurrent hominins known through the fossil record, but it's potentially six or so? The problem perhaps the 15,000 ybp date...but I don't think we necessarily have the youngest fossils of many hominins, so to me it is possible that erectus and others survived longer than we "know." Certainly Bigfoots have.

At one point you could say eve was 1000 females, but if you keep going back in time you would end up with a single female. She wouldn't have been the only one at the time, but rather her offspring would eventually push out all other lineages that were extant while she lived. I believe the optimal scenario might be to use the reported physical characteristics of BF as well as studying mutations from the male Y chromosome(and other genetic clues) to dial in on where they fit with known hominins. I have to do some research to make a better guess, but I suspect the 15,000 year date is based on a known haplogroup with one or maybe two previously unknown mutations. Sykes in his book concluded I believe that a mutation gets into our population through the mitochondria in about 10,000 years. If the sequences are identical to what is known, I can't figure out how they get to the 15,000 year date. However if their haplogroup is one click off from say H, while using the 1:10,000 rule you could come up with that time frame. These would be average mutation rates, which might be important because we are dealing with a migration limitation due to the reflooding of the Bearing sea land bridge.

Edited December 7, 2012 by HODS