The Ketchum Report

[Guest Tontar]

For an example my own mitochondrial DNA is NA. HOWEVER that single NA female entered the family tree in the late 1600's so today I bear no morphology what so ever that indicates I am part NA. However my mitochondrial DNA is 100% NA. I had a friend in High School who was 1/4 NA but his Y chromosome came from an English man and his mitochondrial DNA came from an German woman. You look at just those two and you'd identify him as European but he looked as NA as anyone I've ever known.

You and your high school friends have been DNA tested to determine what's in your nuclear and mitochondrial DNA?

[Guest DWA]

You and your high school friends have been DNA tested to determine what's in your nuclear and mitochondrial DNA?

AAAAAAAARGH! LEAK!

Signed,

The Government

(sorry, couldn't resist.)

[southernyahoo]

It could under specific circumstances. Those are unlikely in my opinion. The hybrids could somehow be superior. I like the logic of disruptive selection better which is basically that they are better adapted to a non technological lifestyle so immediate dramatic improvement in a hybrid is unlikely. There are also a few other possibilities but it seems more likely to me that interbreeding would be relatively uncommon so her DNA should be dramatically diluted after several generations.

A single mating is going to be diluted more as the generations pass. The genes of the offspring are essentially the genes of all the grand parents mixed up by recombining. You have 4 grand parents and 8 great grand parents. After three generations of offspring that is 1/8 modern human, 1/16 after four and so on. It should even out to the percentage that she represented in the population after several generations without selection changing the frequency. She probably improved the gene pool for some of the genes but most of the “human†features are probably maladaptive for their lifestyle. Depending on the size of the breeding population her genes could be essentially eliminated in several generations.

Unless there is relatively frequent modern humans breeding with them it isn't going to dramatically change their genome minus some genes that would logically be selected for. Apparently some mitochondria like haplogroup H are selected for in modern humans. It was reported to somehow provide 50% greater survival in cases of sepsis. I like repeating that because it blows my mind that a mitochondrial haplogroup could have such an advantage and it makes a point. The point is that the mitochondria should be thought more like a group of genes that can increase because of selection or evolutionary pressure. I wouldn’t think it could increase that quickly to encompass an entire population just by selection but I also wouldn't have thought it could possibly give that much of an advantage to modern humans in some seemingly mostly unrelated condition.

They could concievably maintain a non technological niche by disruptive selection and be much closer genetically. It isn’t that wild of an idea. They are apparently more adapted to a wild cryptic lifestyle than we are. They may simply evolve to fit in their particular lifestyle so essentially erase most of the “human†characteristics.

_______

While I am at it I might as well add another thought. It seems like they are forcing the data, based on rumors from Stubstad, to try to get the hybridization happening in Europe when it is simpler, based on the timing of the hybridization event, that it happened in America.

Bob, the date of the hybridization event may be calculated using the accumulation of alleles. See this link under mutation and haplotype.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/extras/molgen/auto_dna.html

I think professor Sykes will be very interested in which of his "Seven Daughters of Eve" wound up in the mix.

Edited December 7, 2012 by southernyahoo

[Guest]

The paper was sent back to K for revision, which has since taken place and resent back for peer review. Igor must have got his english mixed up? Reread the posts, starting about #10850.

This is so crazy the way everything plays out, I don't know if that's good or bad.

[Guest slimwitless]

This seems vaguely relevant:

Did different species of early humans interbreed and produce offspring of mixed ancestry?

[Guest Scout1959]

You and your high school friends have been DNA tested to determine what's in your nuclear and mitochondrial DNA?

No don't have too we know the family tree.

I suppose in his case there could be some deviation but they'd still be European. His white ancestors were recent immigrants. His father was a half blood the product of an English Immigrant and a NA woman. His mother was 100% German with all four of her grandparents immigrating here from Germany. It was a BIG scandal in their family that his mother married a NA and I was also friends with his first cousin and the two families would not speak to each other. (ironically his cousin ended up marrying a NA gal... talk about ticking your parents off..) Thus father's father English (European Y chromosome most likely, mother's mother German (Mitochondria almost certainly European).

In my case my mother has the family tree all the way back in some cases into the 5th century. For the NA woman in question, since she shows up in the 1600's it's a pretty safe bet she was a full-blood and not a half blood and even if she was a half blood (in that line it doesn't go back any further than her) it is an extremely safe bet that her mother was NA.

The liger grows much larger than its parents due to hybredization. I dont think its unreasonable to deduce that happened to the Sasquatch.

Stealing women has been a popular past time through out the ages, both among animals and humans.

I think Sasquatch's dad stole his HSS mom and after alittle romancing little sassy was born but as he grew up little sassy turned into Big Sas.

The rest of the group would have noticed that HSS women make big strong sons and proceded to steal as much HSS women as they could

(possibly causing the original rift between us and them)

Eventually the bigger offspring would take over their family groups and the rest is history.

But the offspring wouldn't stay big as the benefit of hybrid vigor would diminish with each generation. If they got big and stayed there it was due to something else.

[Guest Tontar]

I guess I am not understanding how you can determine that your mitochondrial DNA is 100% NA. If the only NA contributor was a woman in the 1600's, how do you figure it was transmitted to you, unadulterated?

Are you saying that you have direct mother to daughter lineage from that NA woman in the 1600's down to you? An all female line from there to you, thus passing the maternal mitochondria to you through the female line? Are you male or female? If male, that would mean it would end with you?

Edited December 7, 2012 by Tontar

[Guest]

Through the maternal line, that is how they trace evolutionary genetics. The mother passes on the mtDNA to her daughters and sons. However, I'm not clear on how they knew it happened in 1600.

Edited December 7, 2012 by CTfoot

[Guest Tontar]

And if the NA woman in question was indeed half blood, with the father being NA and the mother being white, then she may have appeared to be NA yet have no NA mitochondria at all? So from her on down she may have transmitted the appearance of NA kids, but no mitochondria DNA?

[Guest]

I guess I am not understanding how you can determine that your mitochondrial DNA is 100% NA. If the only NA contributor was a woman in the 1600's, how do you figure it was transmitted to you, unadulterated?

Are you saying that you have direct mother to daughter lineage from that NA woman in the 1600's down to you? An all female line from there to you, thus passing the maternal mitochondria to you through the female line? Are you male or female? If male, that would mean it would end with you?

As I recall... There would HAVE to be an unbroken line of females, stemming from the first NA woman.

Each generation after the first NA would have had to have a female from that time or the mtDNA chain would be broken.

As I understand if not broken then it could only be diluted by mutation.

Example...

My sister, my mother, my Grandmother, , then GGrandmother, then GGGrandmother back to the NA grandparent.

IMHO.... As I recall.....

[Guest]

And if the NA woman in question was indeed half blood, with the father being NA and the mother being white, then she may have appeared to be NA yet have no NA mitochondria at all? So from her on down she may have transmitted the appearance of NA kids, but no mitochondria DNA?

It's possible, the mtDNA acts more like a battery for the nuDNA in that it supplies energy, it's the combination of the paternal and maternal DNA that dictates how the offspring will look.

As I recall... There would HAVE to be an unbroken line of females, stemming from the first NA woman.

Each generation after the first NA would have had to have a female from that time or the mtDNA chain would be broken.

As I understand if not broken then it could only be diluted by mutation.

Example...

My sister, my mother, my Grandmother, , then GGrandmother, then GGGrandmother back to the NA grandparent.

IMHO.... As I recall.....

If there was a direct female lineage then it could be NA mtDNA, no dilution, you get it straight from your mother, who got it from your grandmother, and so on, and so on. Assuming the poster is male he would be the first break in that chain.

There is a good book by Brian Sykes called "The Seven Daughters of Eve" that explains it pretty simply. It has been out long enough that your local library should have it.

Edited December 7, 2012 by CTfoot

[Guest]

So shouting "cupcakes" and using red type passes for debate now?

As a Ketchum thread reader from day one I'm almost missing the days of that chap with the crazy "DNA mailed from different parts of the country" theory. Almost...

[Guest slimwitless]

I remember that, tuckybuzzard. It's interesting to see how the critiques have evolved as things heat up.

[Guest Scout1959]

It's possible, the mtDNA acts more like a battery for the nuDNA in that it supplies energy, it's the combination of the paternal and maternal DNA that dictates how the offspring will look.

If there was a direct female lineage then it could be NA mtDNA, no dilution, you get it straight from your mother, who got it from your grandmother, and so on, and so on. Assuming the poster is male he would be the first break in that chain.

Correct. And yes I am male so my children have none of my mtDNA but have 100% from their mother. Which is most likely European but her family tree is not documented back very far.

mtDNA does not recombine and there is no mtDNA in sperm. It's passed from the mother via the ovum.

And it came into my family line when my ancestor decided to take a NA bride back in the late 1600's. I'd have to get the date from my mother I don't study the family tree like she does. LOL

It's all about women folks. My mother has a very very old copy of 'The Arabian Nights' that has followed along from mother to daughter for many generations. She has four daughters and she once asked me how she should decide who to give it to, I pointed out to her that only one daughter had a daughter and the rest were done having children. Like the book the mtDNA passes the same way. The only one who will pass the NA mtDNA along is my one niece as the sole daughter to a daughter etc.

Enough about my family but perhaps all this helps some understand how it is that BF could have human mtDNA and not be human at all.

[Guest gerrykleier]

So shouting "cupcakes" and using red type passes for debate now?

As a Ketchum thread reader from day one I'm almost missing the days of that chap with the crazy "DNA mailed from different parts of the country" theory. Almost...

Yes that idea killed me. The progenitor of that theory must be waiting for the appropriate time for the big reveal!

GK