The Ketchum Report

[Guest Theagenes]

So let's explore this unknown paternal side of Ketchum's theory for a moment.

It has to be very close to us.......and had to be living 15000 years ago.

The hobbit? They were on a island in SE Asia 15000 years ago and four feet tall. Not a likely candidate. I also understand that Homo Erectus manufactured stone tools and used fire..... again not a likely candidate.

Anybody else have any likely candidates?

Yes, I actually think Heidelbergensis or a descendent would fit her criteria. But it would have to be a group that became isolated in an environment that would cuse it to become taller and hairier. There was actually an isolated group in south Africa that evolved to be over 7 feet tall so it's not as crazy as it sounds.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

Does anybody know WHAT a human can interbreed with? Chimps? Gorillas? Orangs? Giganto? Obviously Neanderthals and Denisovas.......but they were essentially human already.

There aren't any documented cases of human/"ape" hybrids, but two different species having different numbers of chromosomes won't necessarily prevent hybridization. I believe the major factor is the structural similarity of the chromosomes. For example, zebras and horses have a different number of chromosomes, but are known to be able to create hybrids. So I personally think a human/ape hybrid is totally possible.

Let me bold this so everyone catches it: Disotell actually confirmed that Ketchum's proposed hybridization event 15,000 years ago is plausible.

That's also what I heard.

[Guest Theagenes]

At this point, it's an undiscovered/unknown candidate. If it had previously existed, it would be in the genome bank.

That's not correct. The only two hominins other than ourselves that have had their complete genome sequenced are Neanderthal and Denisovan. The other known hominins have not been sequenced so you can't compare with them yet. I believe they are working on Floresensis.

[norseman]

That is what we he was saying, but that's not what she is proposing. That's where there's a disconnect.

But again that's mostly due to her vague and poorly worded press release. Part of the problem was that Disotell had a hard time getting past the fact that she put out this press release with conclusions and no data to back it up, leap-frogging the review process---and he's right. I can't emphasize enough how terrible a move that was for the credibility of this study. She dug a real hole for herself and made what was already going to be an uphill battle even more difficult.

But that said, Disotell took the vague wording of her press release and chose to interpret it in way that would make her apparent conclusions sound the most ridiculous---i.e. that BF branched off from humanity 15,000 BP. Later he admits that there is an interpretation of her conclusions that is plausible---that there was a hybridization event between humans and BF 15,000 BP. Of course we now know from subsequent interviews that the latter is exactly what she is proposing.

If you look back earlier in this thread a few weeks ago when I first started posting here, you'll see I had the same problem with the vagueness of the press release, but I chose to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just a hybridization event in the past that she was talking about---just like other hybridization events that we know about with Neanderthals and Denisovans. Disotell chose to willfully interpret her admittedly vague comments in the worst possible light for the purpose of mocking her, in keeping with the tone of the show. But even then he had to eventually reign in the sneering hosts and admit that if she was talking about a hybridization event then that it is plausible (if unlikely). You just have to wade through the snark to get to that very important point.

Let me bold this so everyone catches it: Disotell actually confirmed that Ketchum's proposed hybridization event 15,000 years ago is plausible.

There is very good discussion of this topic a couple of weeks back in this very thread. In addition to Neanderthals and Denisovans there is also evidence that some humans in Africa mated with another as yet unidentified hominin that is further removed from us than those two. This might have been H. heidel bergensis or H. rhodesiensis. Also, Neanderthal and Denisovans mated with each other. This is essentialyl what Ketchum is proposing---another one of these hybriditization events only at 15,000 BP instead of 40,000 BP. The problem is then how does this hominin which needs to be fairly closely related to us come to be 7-8" feet tall and covered with hair. That's where the problem comes in; not the hybridization event itself.

And doesn't use fire, tools, etc, etc.

I don't have a problem with hybridization with different Homo sub species. But you don't breed a Leghorn with a Barred Rock and get a Turkey out of the deal.

[Guest thermalman]

^^Didn't Ketchum discount those two in an interview? Until they're in the genome bank, they would have to be classified unknown, because that's what she's comparing her findings to.

Edited December 26, 2012 by thermalman

[norseman]

Yes, I actually think Heidelbergensis or a descendent would fit her criteria. But it would have to be a group that became isolated in an environment that would cuse it to become taller and hairier. There was actually an isolated group in south Africa that evolved to be over 7 feet tall so it's not as crazy as it sounds.

Did they start fires and use tools?

There aren't any documented cases of human/"ape" hybrids, but two different species having different numbers of chromosomes won't necessarily prevent hybridization. I believe the major factor is the structural similarity of the chromosomes. For example, zebras and horses have a different number of chromosomes, but are known to be able to create hybrids. So I personally think a human/ape hybrid is totally possible.

Iam very familiar with horse and ass hybrids called a mule.........it's a one time event. You don't breed John and Molly mules.......they are sterile.

[Guest Theagenes]

Did they start fires and use tools?

Iam very familiar with horse and ass hybrids called a mule.........it's a one time event. You don't breed John and Molly mules.......they are sterile.

Again I would suggest you check out the discussion on December 9 and 10 in this thread where some of us went into this in great depth. It was an interesting discussion. The fact that this proposed hominin progenitor would have had to lose its use of fire and lithic technology was one of the problems I had too. Those are learned cultural behaviors though so it is possible to lose them.

^^Didn't Ketchum discount those two in an interview? Until they're in the genome bank, they would have to be classified unknown, because that's what she's comparing her findings to.

Yes. But point was it could one of the other known hominins: H. Heidelbergensis, H. Antecessor, H. Rhodesensis, H. Idaltu, H. Floresiensis, etc. None of these have had their DNA sequenced so Ketchum could not compare here sample to them.

Just to be clear I'm not saying any of this is likely--only that it is possible that her scenario could work. I doubt that Ketchum herself has even thought about this that deply as she still seems to be talking about the unlikely Solutrean Hypothesis to explain it..

Edited December 26, 2012 by Theagenes

[Guest thermalman]

Yes. But point was it could one of the other known hominins: H. Heidelbergensis, H. Antecessor, H. Rhodesensis, H. Idaltu, H. Floresiensis, etc. None of these have had their DNA sequenced so Ketchum could not compare here sample to them.

I believe that was my point in post #12076. If they're not in the genome bank, they're undocumented/unknown, which is the only thing she can base her DNA findings on. We're comparing DNA results, not given names of bone fragments that could turn out to be known in the genome bank.

Edited December 26, 2012 by thermalman

[Guest Theagenes]

Ah, I misunderstood you then.

Alright I've got to get to bed. Listening to 3 straight hours of Ketchum followed by Disotell has fried my brain.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Theagenes

[Guest thermalman]

LOL........have a good nite.......

[TimB]

And doesn't use fire, tools, etc, etc.

I don't have a problem with hybridization with different Homo sub species. But you don't breed a Leghorn with a Barred Rock and get a Turkey out of the deal.

When the American bison (bison bison) almost became extinct, they bred in cattle (bos taurus) to expand the herd. Now however many years later, they are trying to breed back to purity in various herds around the country. So, in essence, approximately 100 years or less ago a separate species of animal was introduced into the gene pool of bison bison. You cannot tell the difference visually between a bison that is 100% "pure" and one that is 91%.

My guess is the unknown "hominin" isn't presently accounted for in the "fossil record" or the gen bank. So wondering what currently known homo species is in the samples seems unproductive to me. But who am I to say?

Tim B.

[norseman]

When the American bison (bison bison) almost became extinct, they bred in cattle (bos taurus) to expand the herd. Now however many years later, they are trying to breed back to purity in various herds around the country. So, in essence, approximately 100 years or less ago a separate species of animal was introduced into the gene pool of bison bison. You cannot tell the difference visually between a bison that is 100% "pure" and one that is 91%.

My guess is the unknown "hominin" isn't presently accounted for in the "fossil record" or the gen bank. So wondering what currently known homo species is in the samples seems unproductive to me. But who am I to say?

Tim B.

Because there are none at 91%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison

During that period, a handful of ranchers gathered remnants of the existing herds to save the species from extinction. These ranchers bred some of the bison with cattle in an effort to produce “cattleoâ€.^[22] Accidental crossings were also known to occur. Generally, male domestic bulls were crossed with buffalo cows, producing offspring of which only the females were fertile. The crossbred animals did not demonstrate any form of hybrid vigor, so the practice was abandoned. The proportion of cattle DNA that has been measured in introgressed individuals and bison herds today is typically quite low, ranging from 0.56 to 1.8%.^[22][23] In the United States, many ranchers are now utilizing DNA testing to cull the residual cattle genetics from their bison herds. The U.S. National Bison Association has adopted a code of ethics which prohibits its members from deliberately crossbreeding bison with any other species.

[Guest]

Iam very familiar with horse and ass hybrids called a mule.........it's a one time event. You don't breed John and Molly mules.......they are sterile.

Evidently not familiar enough...

http://en.wikipedia..../Mule#Fertility

I will embolden the pertinent parts for you and explain how they relate to the debate at hand:

Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. A few female mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.^[9][10]

In the proposed hypothesis, this sentence could be rewritten thusly:

A few female Sasquatch have produced offspring when mated with a purebred Homo Sapiens Sapiens or <unknown non-human progenitor>.

A 1939 article in the Journal of Heredity describes two offspring of a fertile mare mule named "Old Bec", which was owned at the time by the A&M College of Texas (now Texas A&M University) in the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike its mother, it was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited saddlebred stallion, exhibited no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no characteristics of the donkey.^[15]

If <unknown non-human progenitor> exhibited the 'Squatch' characteristics we know and love (height, mass, hirsuteness, adaptation to low light levels et cetera) and then bred with a fertile female offspring of HSS and <un-hp> then the HSS characteristics could be bred out of the lineage, yet - and here comes the important part - the HSS mtDNA would continue to be extant in the female lineage.

[Guest]

What did her Sierra sample test out to be?!?

Bf evidence has a statement from Tyler Huggins and bartlojays today. They were given chunks from General to independently sample. Results are in. BLACK BEAR!!!!!!!!

Hey on the bright side, a bear looks more like a squatch than a coyote.

[Guest]

It is curious a lab seems unable to remove contamination (or the concern) from such a large sample. It was my understanding that techniques today, given the sample as both hair and tissue, eliminate contamination reliably?

http://bigfooteviden...ino-shares.html

Edited December 26, 2012 by apehuman