The Ketchum Report

[Guest]

Yeah, because the road is long with many a winding turn.

But, all he is is dust in the wind.

[Guest]

The origin if life is abiogenesis not evolution.

Dodge is a brand of car, not a legitimate debating tactic, jerry.

It absolutely IS part of evolution. You can't claim that life began one way, then miraculously switched gears and changed it's mechanism of development.

I already explained to you the real difference but your response was emotionally changed populist rhetoric ("so scientists are smart and laypeople are dumb").

I'll stop pointing out the truth when "science" stops engaging in that particular bit of intellectual dishonesty. "Science" (more Western than Eastern) has ALWAYS had to be drug kicking and screaming into accepting new ideas that the populace long ago took for granted.

Your right in the case of PR. Some articles are later found to be wrong by other articles. So if Ketchum publishes her paper and other papers critique it, how are you going to take it?

Depends on the papers and what they bring to the table. Not all criticisms are of equal merit.

That were taught as truths in the education system. That's my point. Where some scientific truths are eventually proven as myths, there are many more "theories and truths" taught as truths, waiting in the wings for "truthful" verification.

I'll add that that same system, supposedly set up to educate, all too often becomes a vector used to indoctrinate. Certainly the K-12 years meet that criteria, being focused not on teaching thinking, but on assimilating and regurgitating a canon of the current "accepted knowledge". By the time a Senior graduates, they've been marinated in 12 years of group-think.

Once upon a time, college level courses challenged that status quo, but these days they're as bad as the K-12 classes.

[Guest]

With legitimate concern growing over the possibility of the Ketchum study collapsing into a gigantic debacle, I am worried as to the effect that it will have on the bigfoot research community. I fear that many in the community who hoped for a major scientific breakthrough will become dispirited and depressed, while the smug skeptics will use it as a cruel hammer to attack and belittle the believers.

I hope that I am incorrect about Ketchum, but even if it turns into a disaster (as it seems more and more likely), it could be viewed as a wonderful opportunity. The recent popular interest in bigfoot has reached its peak and it seems that the fad has brought many snide and sophomoric trolls who appear to have no other interest in the subject than to dream up new ways to savagely ridicule believers. Sadly, as much as it is difficult to acknowledge, the bullying does have some effect and many pure minded people are being driven away by the skeptics' sheer ruthlessness.

Perhaps the denouement of the Ketchum saga will cause many of those negative elements to lose interest in bigfoot and go away. I am beginning to think that the bigfoot community is better off without the mainstream recognition that has occurred in the last few years.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Plenipotentiary

[Guest]

At a friend's house (I had just arrived), everyone else was in the house, and about 30-35' and in good light (headlight high beams). It was in view at least 3-5 seconds, as I clearly saw it take a full step then the first part of a second step as it went around behind the house.

Couple of questions. Was this in an area typically inhabited by BF? This appears to be in a residential area?..Did any of the people there know you were interested in BF at the time? Had others in that area recently (before or after) report this creature? Have you ever considered that you may have been a target of a hoax? I'm not questioning your experience here and I'm not trying to debunk it either..just asking obvious questions that would come up. Edited January 29, 2013 by ronn1

[Guest]

With legitimate concern growing over the possibility of the Ketchum study collapsing into a gigantic debacle, I am worried as to the effect that it will have on the bigfoot research community. I fear that many in the community who hoped for a major scientific breakthrough will become dispirited and depressed, while the smug skeptics will use it as a cruel hammer to attack and belittle the believers.

You and me both. It's already started.

[Guest]

Couple of questions. Was this in an area typically inhabited by BF? This appears to be in a residential area?

It was on the very edge of town where developed land butted right up on and partially surrounded by a good amount of UNdeveloped land. (This has since changed.) It would have been no problem at that time for critters to access the property with good cover for all but a short distance (basically to cross the road and front yards on either side. The back of the house was overgrown and had a small spring-fed pond, which we speculated was what was drawing them in, as the next nearest source of water was a small creek/river that was heavily polluted with runoff.

..Did any of the people there know you were interested in BF at the time? Had others in that area recently (before or after) report this creature?

Yes, this happened as part of a "flap" of activity that stretched over about 6-7 months followed by a trailing off over the next 4-5 months until the activity stopped (we think because of the development of the area).

My friend had a sighting on the property himself while I was there on another occasion and he reported the whole mess to at least one org and on the precursor to this forum.

There was at least one other report I know of in the same general area.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/sbs/springfield.htm

Have you ever considered that you may have been a target of a hoax?

The only candidate would have been my friend himself, and I discount the idea. The events going on around the property scared the crap out of him, the kind of fear that is virtually impossible to fake.

[Guest]

With legitimate concern growing over the possibility of the Ketchum study collapsing into a gigantic debacle, I am worried as to the effect that it will have on the bigfoot research community. I fear that many in the community who hoped for a major scientific breakthrough will become dispirited and depressed, while the smug skeptics will use it as a cruel hammer to attack and belittle the believers.

I hope that I am incorrect about Ketchum, but even if it turns into a disaster (as it seems more and more likely), it could be viewed as a wonderful opportunity. The recent popular interest in bigfoot has reached its peak and it seems that the fad has brought many snide and sophomoric trolls who appear to have no other interest in the subject than to dream up new ways to savagely ridicule believers. Sadly, as much as it is difficult to acknowledge, the bullying does have some effect and many pure minded people are being driven away by the skeptics' sheer ruthlessness.

Perhaps the denouement of the Ketchum saga will cause many of those negative elements to lose interest in bigfoot and go away. I am beginning to think that the bigfoot community is better off without the mainstream recognition that has occurred in the last few years.

After listening to Bart's interview, I believe that a debacle could be on the horizon. Having said that, the Ketchum study is not the be all and all. The research would just continue. And I agree if that if the mainstream recognition drops, it would thin out the herd and hopefully leave behind people who are genuine in their motives and are transparent with their actions and integrity.

[Guest]

Dodge is a brand of car, not a legitimate debating tactic, jerry.

It absolutely IS part of evolution. You can't claim that life began one way, then miraculously switched gears and changed it's mechanism of development.

The way life came how is different then how it develops.

I'll stop pointing out the truth when "science" stops engaging in that particular bit of intellectual dishonesty. "Science" (more Western than Eastern) has ALWAYS had to be drug kicking and screaming into accepting new ideas that the populace long ago took for granted.

Uh, no. There you go again with your Patch Adams nonsense. There no "kicking and screaming". For there to be a paradigm shift, there needs to be enough collection of data in order to be sure, especially when you are overturning a theory thats worked for so long.

I said that peer review is an irrelevant concept when the people who would supposedly be doing such review dismiss the topic out of hand.

Expect few bigfooters have actually submitted for PR.

When a paper is presented for peer review, it is presented to people who simply weren't there for most of the production of what is in that paper; in other words, they are largely taking the submitter's word for it. (Ask yourself how fraudulent papers have passed peer review, which has happened more than once.) They address the science evident in the paper and whether the paper's conclusions are supported by what else is in the paper. The peers aren't doing all the research again, or watching while the submitter repeats every single step; they are reviewing the neat tidy package in which is packaged the research that better have happened. Consequences for lying are the insurance that the submitter did all the work. The peers' expertise is insurance that errors in the manuscript, or incomplete research, or incorrect statements, didn't happen.

That's why replication is important.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Jerrymanderer

[Guest]

This is only my opinion and is not meant to speak for others who call themselves skeptics. Let's break this down into three parts:

1) I believe Bigfoot exists, too many credible people have seen them and it makes no since to believe everyone is mistaken in their accounts or suffering from delutions. Some here may be delutional, but it has nothing to do with Bigfoot.

2) I do not claim that Dr. Ketchum's report is wrong and hope it is published tomorrow and vindicates all that feel they need vindication.

3) Here is the big one; It is plausible someone can use DNA to prove Bigfoot exists and I hope they do, I am skeptical that Dr. Ketchum is the one to do it. I will not go into the reasons, that horse has been beat to death. This has been said a hundred times by people smarter than I, but here goes anyway. How can anyone not intimate with the data, and I assume no one here is, not be skeptical that this will end the way every other attempt to deliver proof of this "creature" has ended? I suspect at some point in time we might get some indication of what is in the report, but I don't believe it will be presented in a way science will accept. Sarcasm alert; I know " Western Science" is weak and mostly a conspiracy, especially evolution, so what does DNA really do for us? We are forbidden to talk about religion, but it appears faith is coming into play here. Faith in the report because they want it to be true and faith to fit this "creature" into their belief system.

It has been said many times that if/when someone has an up close and personal experience it changes their perspective, and I do not doubt that for a second. Skepticism is healty. It keeps us from following charlatans and sales people. Many books are out there, many quite interesting, but few provide any evidence. I have been facinated by this subject since I was a kid and have read or watched anything to do with the subject, and it is ironic because before joining this forum I would have not called myself a skeptic.

[Guest crabshack]

.....it appears faith is coming into play

.... faith to fit this "creature" into their belief system.

More like faith in the religion of evolution. A monkey or ape it is not.

[Guest]

More like faith in the religion of evolution. A monkey or ape it is not.

Please tell us what it is?

[Guest crabshack]

Not a paying member for pit discussions yet.

[Guest]

This kind of proves my point doesn't it. All so cryptic.

[Guest crabshack]

Sorry its the forums rules, you could always email.

[Guest njjohn]

Current science is all monetary driven. Everything is geared towards a political agenda (climate change) or green energy or wherever the grant money is. Even a few people with big pockets isn't going to generate interest from the scientific community when they've got billions of government dollars readily available. It's sad that science isn't driven by a desire to learn, but to just follow the green carrot. The next few studies will all end up being gun violence related due to the new grants that the CDC will be giving out.

As to the evolution aspect... human hybrid or not, I don't see how it would hurt the theory. Macro evolution is when a species supposedly changes from one to the next. Micro evolution is the most excepted and if the Sasquatch were able to sustain itself without having to adapt in a major way, it would still fit the mold. If the studies claimed the Sasquatch was the missing link, then I could see a conflict, but I haven't seen any official mention of that. I think the big problems might be from the leaked info about Ketchum's "Angel DNA" info or relating them to Nephilim. Her interpretation of the information should just stick to the Sasquatch aspect and leave speculation about those aspects until afterwards.