Sierra Shooting from A-Z

[Guest Dr. Boogie]

Not smart enough to get out.

Maybe smart enough to not get out ?

[Guest Cervelo]

I saw an interesting program about primates and their cognitive abilities I think it was animal planet or nat geo. One tid bit I found shocking was chimps did not understand nor could they be taught the concept of pointing or eye aversion as in I look at you and then an object or vice versa and you know to look at that object, person or place.

But a dog understands this concept! I found that very odd.

[Guest]

Will,

A male Orangutan named Bruno escaped from his enclosure in the Los Angeles Zoo three years ago. The Orangutan enclosure is made of a thick wire mesh fencing that they can climb on, but is also strong enough to prevent escape. Its heavily bolted into the ground.

So what did Bruno do? He sat in a corner next to the fence and used his wide body (he's roughly 5'7, 280 lbs), to conceal his Shawshank Redemption style escape attempt. Over a period of SEVERAL WEEKS TO SEVERAL MONTHS (read: he planned it and knew what he was doing), he would carefully gnaw at the fence. Once he separated a part of the fence, he would move on to another part, in systematic fashion. Since he was using his wide body to conceal his escape attempt from both Zoo employees and Zoo visitors, no one had any idea that he was doing. Everyone assumed he was just sitting in the corner, pondering Orangutan thoughts. One day, Bruno decided he'd separated enough pieces, grasped the weakened fence with both hands, ripped it apart and stepped outside. The primate handlers told me while I interned there that they were flabbergasted as to how he escaped, until they went back and examined the fence and realized he'd been carefully chewing it apart over a lengthy period of time.

Unfortunately for Bruno, he is now the only animal at the Los Angeles Zoo that is not allowed into his enclosure unless there is a Zoo employee or volunteer watching him AT ALL TIMES. They literally have a volunteer position that is just to sit there and stare at Bruno. It's sad, because on some days there is no one available to watch him, and they don't let him out into the enclosure with the other Orangutans.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Minyak

[Guest]

I used to go to the B&I all the time as a kid to see Ivan, too!

As far as Justin's story goes...I've waffled so many times on my opinion, but as more and more information comes in, and after hearing his account on the show, it sounds more believable to me than ever. I think back to my first encounter...Derek Randles investigated it, and I withheld certain elements, and didn't even want it published, due to not knowing what to expect out of a BF researcher, or an organization. I had the assumption that people interested in BF must be crazy:) After knowing more about them, and the people involved, I've changed my perception. DR was really helpful though in answering all my questions at the time. Even to this day, certain people get a condensed version of anything I've encountered, and I usually don't admit that I've seen one to many people outside of the BF community.

If Justin has changed his story slightly, or minor details, it doesn't bother me at all. His story has other elements to it, where I could see where I'd hold back parts of it, or slightly change others. The fact that DR says he knows the results of the steak, and still stands by him, speaks volumes to the credibility of the story, IMO.

[See-Te-Cah NC]

Regarding some of my posts here, appologies to General and others, as it was not my intend to insult or demean anyone. This seems to be a hot button topic, so I'll move on to other threads.

Please forgive my comments as well, especially those meant to imply a lack of class - a comment I made that was directed at you, KA.

It takes a big person to apologize. It's a sign of class in my opinion.

[Guest]

Bipedalist: you said "my understanding is it was near fourcorners area or Nevada.....cant remember exact location but it was NOT norcal as I remember......" and I misunderstood, sorry, my bad. - KC

[Guest Jodie]

The only one I owed an apology to was Encounter and I did that before my posts were removed, hope he saw it, I think he did. I'm not apologizing for anything else because I meant every word I said.

[adam2323]

I have followed this thread with great interest from the beginning, Have contacted Justin and been to the site (under 50 miles from my current residence)a few times this fall as there is still very little snow at the location due to our dry fall and winter thus far. Last fall by thanksgiving two to four feet of snow at the same location.

Justin has acted admirley from the begining in this thread, answered all your question as best he could; which I must say some of you here have been to put in lightly... disgusting. I have hunted all over North America and Canada for just about every big game species around. And I would be the first to say I am a huge conservation advocate. Save as much habitat as we can protect that habitat and control the populations from starvation and desease. We do this by having legal hunting seasons.

I am pro kill for the first BF! after that I will galdly be pro no kill. I have been in LE for 23 years and SWAT for 18. It amazes me how quickly some on here judge Justin. It really does not matter at this point what his state of mind was at the time or why he pulled the trigger that day. He did. So lets move forward and make sure this species is recognized so we can rightly protect it. And for petes sake lay off on the attacks against him.

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[bipedalist]

Bipedalist: you said "my understanding is it was near fourcorners area or Nevada.....cant remember exact location but it was NOT norcal as I remember......" and I misunderstood, sorry, my bad. - KC

We were talking find bigfoot facebook marble mtn collage of stuff videos......which was off-topic obviously, at one point the taxidermy forum/thread referenced early on did make reference to the scenario occurring in Nevada in retrospect......

Gold Lake, Plumas County is what I asked about earlier in the thread on about page 120 maybe......thought you might have gone that far back and couldn't figure out why.......so it's all good.

[Guest]

I have followed this thread with great interest from the beginning, Have contacted Justin and been to the site (under 50 miles from my current residence)a few times this fall as there is still very little snow at the location due to our dry fall and winter thus far. Last fall by thanksgiving two to four feet of snow at the same location.

Justin has acted admirley from the begining in this thread, answered all your question as best he could; which I must say some of you here have been to put in lightly... disgusting. I have hunted all over North America and Canada for just about every big game species around. And I would be the first to say I am a huge conservation advocate. Save as much habitat as we can protect that habitat and control the populations from starvation and desease. We do this by having legal hunting seasons.

I am pro kill for the first BF! after that I will galdly be pro no kill. I have been in LE for 23 years and SWAT for 18. It amazes me how quickly some on here judge Justin. It really does not matter at this point what his state of mind was at the time or why he pulled the trigger that day. He did. So lets move forward and make sure this species is recognized so we can rightly protect it. And for petes sake lay off on the attacks against him.

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X2

Justin will be the 1st to admit that he made a mistake, but when I was in my early 20's there was a chance that I would have done the same as Justin did, He knew nothing about BF and I think your pride at that age can get the best of you, so he would not mention that he could have been a little afraid. If you are on the fence about your safety, that tiny bit of the unknown or fear can

persuade you towards your protecting yourself.

There is a couple points that were not mentioned that is not going to change the whole story, but I believe that it will lend some credence to what happened.

The BF was walking towards him and he had his scope on 16 power, the BF would have looked absolutely huge and appear to be much closer than it was and heading in his direction appearing to be getting closer at a faster rate than If was observed with out the scope.

In the state of mind he was in,comparing it to a monster, that could had heightened his since of self preservation.

The young one was on a steep hill that was right above him. this was a strange, unknown animal to him, that is moving towards him and is positioned above him,

there is a natural fear of having something above you that could possibly jump on you.

If it was a bobcat or a coyote in the same circumstances, many people would pull the trigger rather than possibly being harmed.

I am not trying to make excuses,

I'm just to

point out some things that could have nudged him in the direction he took in his decision.

Edited January 8, 2012 by zigoapex

[Guest Cervelo]

Z,

If you don't hunt/shoot or have a lot of experience outdoors I understand your position. But when your standing next to your truck with a rifle in your hand and a buddy who also has a rifle. There really isn't a whole lot your afraid of that's 80 to 100 yrds away. Ok so he's so gripped with terror at the site of the monster he does what, shoots it and then goes looking for that same potentially wounded monster he was so afraid of? Does that really make sense to anyone?

How about this theroy they shoot a Bigfoot and upon inspection are horrified to see it's a hariy human, load it up and remember the story a little different until they figure out what position they are in. Now that I could get behind! But an experienced hunter terrified to the point of shooting when his partner says not to. But happy to go looking for the monster moments later not buying it. Please don't start with the you were not there, you don't know how he feels pity party with me, it's a waste of everyones time! Maybe there is a Bigfoot in the freezer after all!!!

Edited January 8, 2012 by Cervelo

[ShadowBorn]

I really like how this thread went.No one can make up thier minds on what and who to blame or see if even if it is ethical.But does it really matter since the deed is done and there is no bringing it back.Like i said i bring no blame on General and nor do i question his actions on that day.Nor does he owe me any answers.Crap happens and some times you get in to deep where you cannot stop until it is to late.Alot of feelings have been provoked by this and ethics has been violated by hunters standards.Maybe he should have heard his partner but then we would not be hearing about DNA.We might never know why this creature did what it did and I really do not care cause I or anyone else can not change what happen.So we take from it and learn what we can and hope that we do not make the same mistake again.

[Guest]

Z,

If you don't hunt/shoot or have a lot of experience outdoors I understand your position. But when your standing next to your truck with a rifle in your hand and a buddy who also has a rifle. There really isn't a whole lot your afraid of that's 80 to 100 yrds away. Ok so he's so gripped with terror at the site of the monster he does what, shoots it and then goes looking for that same potentially wounded monster he was so afraid of? Does that really make sense to anyone?

How about this theroy they shoot a Bigfoot and upon inspection are horrified to see it's a hariy human, load it up and remember the story a little different until they figure out what position they are in. Now that I could get behind! But an experienced hunter terrified to the point of shooting when his partner says not to. But happy to go looking for the monster moments later not buying it. Please don't start with the you were not there, you don't know how he feels pity party with me, it's a waste of everyones time! Maybe there is a Bigfoot in the freezer after all!!!

I hunted my whole life,very successfully,there is no reason to start bashing ,like I said in the post, but u must not have read that part,I just pointed out some things that could have aided in his decision, no excuses.

everything you said has been said a 1000 times,that horse was beaten to death and then into dust,there is nothing left to beat.

Edited January 8, 2012 by zigoapex

[Guest]

I'm sorry that I got upset from reading the entire shooting report.

We rescue animals, plus I have actually learned how animals bond through our own life experiences with dogs and cats.

The loss of a mother to her young is a big deal in the animal kingdom from my personal observations over the years with my pets.

I also know the hunting rules from hearing hubby teaching it to our sons.

Add in an emotional time over holidays, being really tired from all the excitement, the cooking, add in my soldier son not making it home for the holidays,and I did not cope well at all.

I'm sorry. I overreacted, but I still think what happened was wrong, I just did not need to become as upset as I did, nor should I have ever posted while being distressed about a situation that I have never encountered.

I lost friends due to my post who actually un-friended me, but I made new ones from a soldier here who understood my feelings, and a moderator, Grayjay, with a sweet and kind heart who assisted me in deleting my distressed posting that actually named every hunting regulation and mistake that was made during this encounter.

To my new friends sincerely from me to you, and you know who you are..

We have some of the best mods ever here,and we have Puffnstuff who will always be my hero for his understanding and caring attitude throughout the years that I have known him.

[Guest Thepattywagon]

I wonder what would have happened had Justin not pulled the trigger.

Would the BF continued its arm waving advance, and if so, how close do you think it would have gotten to the hunters before it halted the 'charge'?

Would the little ones have exposed themselves to the hunters, had no shooting occurred?

What are the chances that Justin and Driver could have had a golden opportunity to observe these creatures out in the open, and for who knows how long?

I pose these questions based on the story that the big one DID expose herself completely to the two hunters; made no attempt to remain concealed, in fact just the opposite. That part fascinates me, as it implies a lack of fear of the hunters for whatever reason, and possibly even an attempt to communicate with them.

Personally, I'm past wondering why he pulled the trigger (either time). But the one thing I've always had a problem with was the intimidation/fear level Justin felt, particularly immediately after shooting the big one. According to his story, they jumped in the truck, drove 30 yards into the area and ran toward the direction the wounded BF traveled. This gives me reason to think that whatever fear Justin and Driver had before the trigger was pulled was no longer present.

One generally doesn't run toward danger if there are other options, such as taking some time to assess the situation. Big Game hunters don't immediately give chase after wounding a large potentially dangerous animal, for many reasons. It's not uncommon to wait an hour or more before tracking begins.

Just an observation.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Thepattywagon