Thoughts on the Types of Information we Use

[ShadowBorn]

15 hours ago, Rlee said:

If you found a body in the woods and submitted it to science how many people do you think would believe it? A quick scan of the internet  shows how many people don't believe in Covid, Vaccines, Dinosaurs,  or even the local news. we are bombarded by miss direction and have to use some of our great  intelligence to sort through it. Do you think the common man would believe big foot or would it just be considered fake news.

 A body won't do. We need living specimens.

Rlee

If anyone ever did find a body in the woods I am pretty sure no one would even hear about it. It would be so shot down by actors acting as posters making sure that no one would believe it.  This has bee going on for some time now as we speak since money has been involved with these so called tours in the bigfoot world. Shows have been created for ratings in which has nothing to do with research. So this has brought us no closer to where we need to be . Neither a living nor dead will bring research any closer to these creatures to what the damage of these networks did to research of these creatures.

 

We are still at zero on the research side of these creatures with the same ol rhetoric place we were back in the 70's. The only newest thing that has truly taken placed is the use of thermo's that these creatures are now getting keen onto in our wilderness. Which is saying one thing about these creatures. They are highly intelligent to understand our technology. Now you tell me if an ape, monkey, or even a chimp  is very capable of this where they stand with man. I am not saying that these creatures are not intelligent. But these creatures surpass those creatures for being flesh and blood. This is the reason why they are so hard to research. Also why so many groups stay silent on what they are dealing with. Surprise ,surprise, Right ! Go ahead speak out if I am wrong. If not then stay silent or show me what you have as proof. Stop saying that they do not exist. That is just a poor excuse. The math does not lie. The groups that are out there know the truth. Speak up. Stop hiding the truth.   

[hiflier]

Been reading this thread and there are some very good points being brought out. But IMHO we are in this situation today because of an almost palpable avoidance of pursuing the truth. I read every thread and post carefully, sometimes I'll read them two or three times. The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off. Maybe THAT dynamic should be a part of what gets discussed here.

[Twist]

I’d venture a guess that the BFF active posters represents a rather small slice of the pie in terms of serious BF researchers.   That’s not a criticism of the BFF or the researchers here.   I just think that only a small percentage participate here.  So when considering that reality then how much do we really know about what is and is not being done?   

[ShadowBorn]

7 hours ago, hiflier said:

Been reading this thread and there are some very good points being brought out. But IMHO we are in this situation today because of an almost palpable avoidance of pursuing the truth. I read every thread and post carefully, sometimes I'll read them two or three times. The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off. Maybe THAT dynamic should be a part of what gets discussed here

I do that with a lot of posts on this forum. Where I have to re-read them two or three times just so that I can understand them. Most of the time I have to google words so that I can understand what they mean. Everything I post I have to go over it three to four times to check for typos . This is just so that people can understand what I am trying to convey. This is my life for now. It is not a great life but I have learned to live with it.

 

7 hours ago, hiflier said:

The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off.

Why is it? Why take this subject so far and back away. Why is there so much fear in going further with this subject in the open. It is not like they can take our lives away from us. They cannot control the internet and stop what findings that has been established. I am with you brother. It is time to open up about the truth on these creatures . But we still stay stuck on the same ol subject matter and go no further then we were back in the 70's. Sure I can leave the forum which some members would like. But the subject will still stay in the same place has it has stayed in the past 20 years. This is why it is time to push these groups to have them come out with what they have learned. To see if it all lines up with what we all believe to know what these creatures are. We have the answer but we just do not want to admit it. We already know the truth and we be lying to our selves if we did not. The truth is out there but accepting it is being in denial. I am not ranting but pushing for the truth to come out.

 

5 hours ago, Twist said:

I’d venture a guess that the BFF active posters represents a rather small slice of the pie in terms of serious BF researchers.   That’s not a criticism of the BFF or the researchers here.   I just think that only a small percentage participate here.  So when considering that reality then how much do we really know about what is and is not being done?   

You are right that there only a few percentage of posters who post here on this forum who are active. But there have been some very serious BF researchers who have posted on this forum . Some of which I know that have past away. But still others who are still researching who have made some great progress but have kept very silent. Some of these researchers have even tried to take down a specimen for their own research with no success. Who have called them woodapes but have kept silent . My guess is that these so called woodapes have gotten keen on that group. I feel like there is no need to call them out by name. All I can say is that I am not a circuit rider where you go to these so called meetings and hear these people speak about Bigfoot. I have gone to a few and that is not me.

 

Now about considering on what is and not being done? well we have no idea since everyone is staying silent about it. It is like they have their own top secret planning that they do not want no one to know about. Now why is that ? Is it about being the first people to find the answers about bigfoot. Then becoming the bigshots on the bigfoot circuit where they can bring in this large amount of income. Is this what research has become . Is this why these shows about bigfoot keep popping up every now and then. I am not going to lie about this. At first when I first started to get into researching this creatures I went along these thoughts. They were about becoming rich and famous and going on tv and talking about this creature. That change for me. Now I want nothing to do with that. Now it is just about the truth.

 

We need to start speaking up about these creatures. The silence needs to stop. My fight for advocacy for the truth about these creatures will not stop.

[Twist]

3 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said:

 

Now about considering on what is and not being done? well we have no idea since everyone is staying silent about it. It is like they have their own top secret planning that they do not want no one to know about. Now why is that ? Is it about being the first people to find the answers about bigfoot. Then becoming the bigshots on the bigfoot circuit where they can bring in this large amount of income. Is this what research has become . Is this why these shows about bigfoot keep popping up every now and then. I am not going to lie about this. At first when I first started to get into researching this creatures I went along these thoughts. They were about becoming rich and famous and going on tv and talking about this creature. That change for me. Now I want nothing to do with that. Now it is just about the truth.

If a group puts in work that yields results I see no issue with them profiting off it.   I’m not for exploiting the creature once discovered but do welcome the competition groups or individuals may have to be the first to achieve discovery.   

[hiflier]

11 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said:

Why is it? Why take this subject so far and back away. Why is there so much fear in going further with this subject in the open. It is not like they can take our lives away from us. They cannot control the internet and stop what findings that has been established. I am with you brother. It is time to open up about the truth on these creatures . But we still stay stuck on the same ol subject matter and go no further then we were back in the 70's. Sure I can leave the forum which some members would like. But the subject will still stay in the same place has it has stayed in the past 20 years. This is why it is time to push these groups to have them come out with what they have learned. To see if it all lines up with what we all believe to know what these creatures are. We have the answer but we just do not want to admit it. We already know the truth and we be lying to our selves if we did not. The truth is out there but accepting it is being in denial. I am not ranting but pushing for the truth to come out.

 

^^This is only a small part of a really fine post by ShadowBorn.

 

13 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said:

This is why it is time to push these groups to have them come out with what they have learned.

 

But this is why I keep pushing in the direction I've been going with science. It is to bypass those groups you are referring to. In other words, and to be on topic, "The Types of Information We Use" has gotten us nowhere. MikeZimmer has done am excellent job bringing this out. But the point I'm seeing is that there seems to be an undertone that addresses the Bigfoot Community as being victimized by a lot of what's out there. There is an awful lot of time and energy spent on exposing hoaxes and other shams but, in my opinion, TOO much time and effort is spent doing that. If the time and effort was redirected into the proper channels then there would be no need to chase down whether something is a hoax or not. So the point of my initial post was to show that our time would be much better utilized if we went after the truth ourselves instead of being battered back and forth by whatever is GIVEN to us as the truth.

 

The issue is that people are definitely afraid to confront the issue. It's why they are in the woods looking themselves. The problem with that is it results in just what you said below:

 

27 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said:

But the subject will still stay in the same place has it has stayed in the past 20 years

 

There is a reason for this. And the reason is fear. There is a reason why we hash over the information that is given to us. Again, the reason is fear. Fear of some kind of repercussion or retaliation from someone or something should we actually go strong and raise our hands, or ask questions too far up the ladder. We shouldn't even BE in the position of having to deal with misinformation at this point. We should've been way beyond that by now, but we're not. It's why I said what I said below, which, to your good credit, ShadowBorn, is the underlying fear issue that you picked up on right away. THAT'S what stops nearly everyone from progressing:

 

8 hours ago, hiflier said:

The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off. Maybe THAT dynamic should be a part of what gets discussed here.

 

[SackScratch]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:26 PM, MikeZimmer said:

Stills from Idiocracy? I think I went looking for it once, but did not find it.

 

Yes... in the movie it takes place 500 or so years in the future but that future is now, we are living it today!  lol, they even made a Pro Wrestler the President because "He has Big Muscles he can fix all our Problems!!!", it's like fat versions of the girls from the movie "Clueless" took over the planet through selective breeding! 

Elon Musk has spoken many times about how civilizations like Egypt attained a great level of architecture and one day just forgot how to do any of it, it all collapsed... 

 

Talk about people not believing things no matter the evidence... as the Roman Empire burned and the Barbarians were slaughtering Roman Soldiers on their way to kill the Roman Emperors ... the Emperor's frolicked around and wanted to hear nothing of the doom on the way as they ignored the warnings from scouts of the progress of the Barbarians!  They could not comprehend that they could be defeated by what they referred to as "Savages"!! 

 

Emperor's were surrounded by frolicking yes men that could be compared to leaders today that are surrounded by clueless people like the Congress that have no idea what's going on and don't care as long as their cushy lifestyle remains intact!!

[SackScratch]

Romans greed for more territory and more people to Tax was their undoing, they couldn't secure their borders and got Steamrolled and we're in Denial right up until their deaths... 

[SackScratch]

When ships on expeditions to Australia brought back "Duck Billed Platypus" bodies preserved in salt to London England the best Scientists of their time looked at it and scoffed that it was an Obvious Hoax, that different creature were sowed together as a joke!! Even with a body on a table they refused to believe it...

 

[norseman]

6 hours ago, SackScratch said:

When ships on expeditions to Australia brought back "Duck Billed Platypus" bodies preserved in salt to London England the best Scientists of their time looked at it and scoffed that it was an Obvious Hoax, that different creature were sowed together as a joke!! Even with a body on a table they refused to believe it...

 

At first reaction yes. But the creature now resides in the taxonomy of science. It didn’t remain a cryptid for long after a type specimen was produced.

 

Scientists certainly have preconceived notions about a great many things. Over time? Most of those preconceived notions get destroyed.

[MikeZimmer]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:51 AM, hiflier said:

Been reading this thread and there are some very good points being brought out. But IMHO we are in this situation today because of an almost palpable avoidance of pursuing the truth. I read every thread and post carefully, sometimes I'll read them two or three times. The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off. Maybe THAT dynamic should be a part of what gets discussed here.

 

You have lost me there hiflier? How far, who backs off, where does the discussion need to go?

21 hours ago, ShadowBorn said:

I do that with a lot of posts on this forum. Where I have to re-read them two or three times just so that I can understand them. Most of the time I have to google words so that I can understand what they mean. Everything I post I have to go over it three to four times to check for typos .

 

Three of four times? I do a lot more than that. Every time I read, I see something to revise. Every time I revise, I introduce the possibility of error. Writing computer code is the same by the way. I seldom have written an error free post. I probably never wrote any error free code either, when I was in that business. It is very hard to proof read your own work. I usually spot the mistakes after I have hit the submit button. There must be some deeper reason that just carelessness.

 

21 hours ago, ShadowBorn said:

... Why is it? Why take this subject so far and back away. Why is there so much fear in going further with this subject in the open. ... We need to start speaking up about these creatures. The silence needs to stop. My fight for advocacy for the truth about these creatures will not stop.

 

You have lost me here. What does it mean to take the subject so far and back away? Who is afraid? What are we not speaking up about?

Signed Perplexed

[MikeZimmer]

This is an article, a highly influential article, that people citing science as the be-all-and-end-all should be aware of. I am not anti-science: I worked as a research assistant over several years; went to graduate school; took several courses in statistics; research methods was my favourite university class bar none; but, after a few decades, you start to see that the picture you were shown of science was a cartoonish one. This article, although slightly difficult, gives ways in which the enterprise is flawed.

 

It relates to this topic in terms of the production of information, misinformation, and disinformation. Scientists sometimes get things right, they often get things wrongs, and sometimes, they lie through their teeth. Scientific research is often the best way to learn a lot of things, but there are problems.

 

Maybe science self corrected on the platypus and eventually,  on the Washington scablands (https://www.historylink.org/File/8382), but those were not such rare events as all of that. It still needs to self-correct on rare cryptid primates.

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

• John P. A. Ioannidis

• Published: August 30, 2005
• https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

Abstract

Summary

There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of true to no relationships among the relationships probed in each scientific field. In this framework, a research finding is less likely to be true when the studies conducted in a field are smaller; when effect sizes are smaller; when there is a greater number and lesser preselection of tested relationships; where there is greater flexibility in designs, definitions, outcomes, and analytical modes; when there is greater financial and other interest and prejudice; and when more teams are involved in a scientific field in chase of statistical significance. Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias. In this essay, I discuss the implications of these problems for the conduct and interpretation of research.

 

15 hours ago, SackScratch said:

 

..  it's like fat versions of the girls from the movie "Clueless" took over the planet through selective breeding!

 

 

I did enjoy clueless. I watched it more than once.

Edited June 15, 2020 by MikeZimmer

[hiflier]

3 hours ago, MikeZimmer said:

You have lost me there hiflier? How far, who backs off, where does the discussion need to go?

 

Maybe check out my post again if you would? People here are afraid to go after the truth by knocking on doors of science or just about any official agency. Even though by doing so they could circumvent all of the misinformation, disinformation and hoaxing you described in your OP. And just so you know, this is not a subjective opinion that I have. Members have told me straight out that that they are afraid to lift their heads or raise their hands to a state or government agency in order to push for the truth about the existence of Sasquatch. So it's not something I'm just making up. The fear is a real thing here on the BFF. I email agencies, little if any response (though I was able to actually speak to a state biologist on the phone). I have emailed over 15 academics, emailed Dr. Meldrum, Dr. Disotell, AND Dr. Mireya Mayor (Expedition: Bigfoot- primatologist) to no avail.

 

But the truth of the matter is that if a lot of folks got together and did this as a consensus then maybe some headway could be gained. As it is most everyone simply hits the woods hoping to find some sign of the creature, or just come here and deal with the misinformation, disinformation and hoaxes. So much time and so much energy/bandwidth, and it's been like this for the 7 years that I've been here and, believe me, a lot longer than that. The point is that people will only take this subject so far and when it looks like the only sure course left is to knock on some official's door then they stop short. It's as if they would rather deal with the years of misinformation, disinformation, hoaxes and ridicule than meet the problem head on and confront the people or agencies that KNOW the truth.

 

It is fear that keeps us on the fringe. Nothing else. That's why we subject ourselves to the shams and scams in Bigfootery. Because we haven't got the steel to go get the answer. I don't think I could explain things any clearer than that. How many times have I read where family members snicker and roll their eyes, never mind the media and other entities. And it's no one's fault but our own. My own hypothesis regarding discovering Bigfoot using a certain genetic signature is out there right now to no less than SIX PhD's just looking for an assessment of the concept. Only two wrote back saying they'd look into it and to give them a couple od days.......that was weeks ago. Because, as has been told to me by a member here, I am just one random person. The reason I AM that one random person doing this outreach is because of the fear that is here.

 

Now I'm not saying this because I think this is where your thread's discussion ought to go, Only, as I said, that it might be PART of the discussion:

 

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 2:51 PM, hiflier said:

The consistent undercurrent is that people will only take this subject so far and then back off. Maybe THAT dynamic should be a part of what gets discussed here.

 

P.S. I expect at least one downvote on this post.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by hiflier

[norseman]

3 hours ago, MikeZimmer said:

This is an article, a highly influential article, that people citing science as the be-all-and-end-all should be aware of. I am not anti-science: I worked as a research assistant over several years; went to graduate school; took several courses in statistics; research methods was my favourite university class bar none; but, after a few decades, you start to see that the picture you were shown of science was a cartoonish one. This article, although slightly difficult, gives ways in which the enterprise is flawed.

 

It relates to this topic in terms of the production of information, misinformation, and disinformation. Scientists sometimes get things right, they often get things wrongs, and sometimes, they lie through their teeth. Scientific research is often the best way to learn a lot of things, but there are problems.

 

Maybe science self corrected on the platypus and eventually,  on the Washington scablands (https://www.historylink.org/File/8382), but those were not such rare events as all of that. It still needs to self-correct on rare cryptid primates.

Why Most Published Research Findings Are False

• John P. A. Ioannidis

• Published: August 30, 2005
• https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

Abstract

 

Summary

 

There is increasing concern that most current published research findings are false. The probability that a research claim is true may depend on study power and bias, the number of other studies on the same question, and, importantly, the ratio of true to no relationships among the relationships probed in each scientific field. In this framework, a research finding is less likely to be true when the studies conducted in a field are smaller; when effect sizes are smaller; when there is a greater number and lesser preselection of tested relationships; where there is greater flexibility in designs, definitions, outcomes, and analytical modes; when there is greater financial and other interest and prejudice; and when more teams are involved in a scientific field in chase of statistical significance. Simulations show that for most study designs and settings, it is more likely for a research claim to be false than true. Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias. In this essay, I discuss the implications of these problems for the conduct and interpretation of research.

 

 

I did enjoy clueless. I watched it more than once.

In order for it to self correct? Researchers need to stop offering blurry photos and dental resin casts to science as proof. It didn’t work 50 years ago....and it isn’t going to work now.

 

Now a head in a salt solution? It may be ridiculed at first? But science won’t be laughing for long.

 

But this requires lots of boots on the ground searching and willing to do something most deem unethical. Therefore? We get more photos and casts. Aka..... disappointment and heartache. People come and people go. Most become disillusioned over the lack of progress. Hiflier is convinced petitioning government agencies is the answer. Hopefully it pays off but I’m not holding my breath.

 

Ive had a mess on the ranch this year to clean up. Lots of downed trees on fence lines. But once I get a handle on it? I will once again take my guide gun and go enjoy the outdoors. With the every so slim possibility of bumping the impossible.

 

 

[hiflier]

7 hours ago, norseman said:

Hiflier is convinced petitioning government agencies is the answer. Hopefully it pays off but I’m not holding my breath.

 

In truth I've been emailing PhD's. Sue, at first I was going for agencies until last Autumn. But I figure since I'm after an answer on a more genetic approach then actual scientists should be the ones to contact. So that's what I've been doing:

 

8 hours ago, hiflier said:

My own hypothesis regarding discovering Bigfoot using a certain genetic signature is out there right now to no less than SIX PhD's just looking for an assessment of the concept

 

After that, I'll let the scientists deal with the agencies.

 

7 hours ago, norseman said:

I've had a mess on the ranch this year to clean up. Lots of downed trees on fence lines. But once I get a handle on it? I will once again take my guide gun and go enjoy the outdoors. With the every so slim possibility of bumping the impossible.

 

 

And I wish you the best of luck, too, to add to your skill!