ShadowBorn Posted June 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2020 12 hours ago, MikeZimmer said: You have lost me here. What does it mean to take the subject so far and back away? Who is afraid? What are we not speaking up about? Signed Perplexed What exactly are you looking for as far as searching for answers about these creatures? As far as going with the subject so far and then backing away from it statement goes. There is no truthfulness going on with what we are seeing and hearing about these creatures. No way to discern the wheat from the weeds in order to understand what we are really dealing with. Witnesses get fearful of spilling their sighting due repercussions that come along with the event. It is even worst when there is an event that the witness cannot even understand what took place. A lot of these so called groups vent these sightings out of their data base since they do not want to deal with these types of events. Most groups do not even dare speak of these events due to the fact that they do not want to be known as being crazy. It does not matter that these creatures are flesh and blood. It is the unexplainable that occurs that is perplexing that has these groups drawing away from the truth. Quote What are we not speaking up about? What is the least thing that no one wants to speak about these creatures on this forum? What is it that everyone stays away from and refuses to accept? These groups have all experienced it at some time in there research. The problem is that they refuse to admit it . They would rather sweep it under the rug. Yet ,it keeps coming out in the fore front. Which makes these creatures complex when they are not. Am I throwing out my opinions , you bet! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 9 hours ago, norseman said: In order for it to self correct? Researchers need to stop offering blurry photos and dental resin casts to science as proof. It didn’t work 50 years ago....and it isn’t going to work now. I like this, because it is on topic and so true. There is value in mucking through misinformation, disinformation and hoaxes in that it has educated us in narrowing down the field in what we choose to deal with, and for how long. And it has helped better for researchers to know what gets more valued should they wish to post their findings. All that stuff has helped define the avenues worthy of our pursuit in solving for Bigfoot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SackScratch Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 On 6/12/2020 at 7:31 PM, Rlee said: If you found a body in the woods and submitted it to science how many people do you think would believe it? A quick scan of the internet shows how many people don't believe in Covid, Vaccines, Dinosaurs, or even the local news. we are bombarded by miss direction and have to use some of our great intelligence to sort through it. Do you think the common man would believe big foot or would it just be considered fake news. A body won't do. We need living specimens. My own father of which I share 50% of my DNA with saw that 180 cities in the USA had Riots, Looting and Beatings of innocent business owners on the news last week complete with on the ground up close footage and my step-mom said he refuses to believe it, thinks it's all fake in order to drive out Trump! People see what they want to see from their Safe Spaces! all the business owners getting randomly jumped looked like they were in disbelief too from all the videos I saw... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 On 6/12/2020 at 5:31 PM, Rlee said: If you found a body in the woods and submitted it to science how many people do you think would believe it? A quick scan of the internet shows how many people don't believe in Covid, Vaccines, Dinosaurs, or even the local news. we are bombarded by miss direction and have to use some of our great intelligence to sort through it. Do you think the common man would believe big foot or would it just be considered fake news. A body won't do. We need living specimens. This doesn’t matter. We are trying to convince science......NOT the common man. We don’t even need a full body. A significant portion will do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIB Posted June 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, norseman said: This doesn’t matter. We are trying to convince science......NOT the common man. Yes and no. Depends on the "hat." A person can be a witness or a researcher, or both, but those who are both generally have a primary role, one that outweighs the other. For a person who is primarily a witness, then proving to "the common man" amounts to proving to the people who ridiculed them, and yeah, that is who they are trying to convince. For a person who is primarily a researcher, then proving to science, or being able to prove to science, is the prime consideration. 9 minutes ago, norseman said: We don’t even need a full body. A significant portion will do. Agreed. I think it is likely that any "piece" large enough that it can be subjected to repeated DNA testing, thus confirming the results more or less on demand, will be sufficient. My personal "gold standard" is placenta providing blood and tissue without need for injury. Fairly unlikely, but gold standards are not required to be easy. MIB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBorn Posted June 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2020 See that just makes my point more clear when one post smurk on my post. Rather then post a comment they hide behind a silly smurk. Just like all the down votes that Hiflier gets on his posting of what he believes to be true . See it takes courage to post what seems to be happening to be true. But how can they when they are fearful of the ridicule that comes with a group mentality. It is like being out with wolves and the one wolf that goes against the way they think gets kicked out of that pack of wolves. There is no free thinking. Yet things do seem to lead to a single point and people refuse to accept it. We go out looking for proof and when we find the proof it gets shot down by people who believe they know what they are talking about. Yet these vary same people have never had a encounter of there own to even form an opinion of their own. It cannot get much clearer then that. Find, we are trying to set up a flow chart that will make it easier to get us to the truth. I do not have a problem with that. But how many times has it been tried and we have gotten no where with one. We have pulled up graph charts that show that there is a living species roaming in our forest. But yet we have not been able to get the data to be able to get on and predict when where they will actually be. All we have heard so far is " Do they exist or Do they do not exist " . Now that does nothing for research that is for a creature that is suppose to be Flesh and Blood. You have all these groups that have tried all these different techniques and yet still we are still stuck in the 60's and 70's of research. We have gone no further then where we are at today then were at back then. Now the sightings are still happening with credible people . Investigators are still investigating these sightings. So we cannot say that these creatures have been wiped of the earth completely. Because the sightings are still happening . Researchers have not given up on their research. So they must still exist. So how should we improve on this. what must we do to move this on a new level. Mike is bringing up good points on how we should handle it. Hiflier has a different angle as to how we should work this. I have a different perspective that not everyone agrees with but should be looked at. Norseman has the an angle that one should be shot. I believe that a lot of us are in agreement on this angle. But we need more information before we can even move forward with this. Finding a dead body would be best. But how many years have gone past and yet not body part has been found. Which led to the speculation that they must either hide their dead or bury them. Which this leads us to a totally different direction about them. So in my opinion we just need to start thinking in a new direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 44 minutes ago, MIB said: Yes and no. Depends on the "hat." A person can be a witness or a researcher, or both, but those who are both generally have a primary role, one that outweighs the other. For a person who is primarily a witness, then proving to "the common man" amounts to proving to the people who ridiculed them, and yeah, that is who they are trying to convince. For a person who is primarily a researcher, then proving to science, or being able to prove to science, is the prime consideration. Agreed. I think it is likely that any "piece" large enough that it can be subjected to repeated DNA testing, thus confirming the results more or less on demand, will be sufficient. My personal "gold standard" is placenta providing blood and tissue without need for injury. Fairly unlikely, but gold standards are not required to be easy. MIB Proving it to science should be the primary consideration. Once proven to science the people ridiculing the witness become flat earthers...... It becomes fact. People in a free society can choose to ignore facts. But then they themselves open themselves up to ridicule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) As long as we use common sense in any pursuit then there is a chance. 53 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said: So in my opinion we just need to start thinking in a new direction. There aren't that many directions left to take, Shadowborn. Find a dead one, create a dead one, or discover the DNA of one. Those three avenues have a good chance. As far as graphs, charts and other types of data goes, Peter Byrne himself enlisted the American Academy of Sciences back in 1992 to do a study on the geospacial aspect of Bigfoot. That being looking at reports and determining location vs. time in order to find a pattern of some kind. Same thing we have been doing ever since. He also lead an expedition into Northern California before that with the financial support of Tom Slick to no avail. Even had guns and a helicopter standing by 24/7 just in case they got one. Again, to no avail and kind of what we are doing right now. So what's left? I truly thought the nest find in the Olympic Peninsula was going to be it. It wasn't but the must recent find just this past February supports the initial discovery back in May of 2015 so maybe this second find will be enough to get science to stay with the phenomenon to get an answer to what/who is building the structures. The thing is, we don't have to be chasing misinformation, disinformation or hoaxes. We have enough real world science to keep the ball rolling and that's where our time and effort should go. And I'm convinced real world science can solve this thing. But they need our support in the way of letting scientists know that we WANT the answer. And not just one person either, but many people need to voice that request. Things can and will change if science hears from enough of us. I'm convinced of that. And doing that with any success will be much better that seeing or good friend Norseman take such a risk with himself that we all know could bring some serious trouble for him. I've been pushing on academia as hard as I can to see if his potential situation can be at all avoided. I agree with his goals and methods but, good grief, if he doesn't have to go through with it then he would be so much better off all the way around. Edited June 15, 2020 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, hiflier said: As long as we use common sense in any pursuit then there is a chance. There aren't that many directions left to take, Shadowborn. Find a dead one, create a dead one, or discover the DNA of one. Those three avenues have a good chance. As far as graphs, charts and other types of data goes, Peter Burn himself enlisted the American Academy of Sciences back in 1992 to do a study on the geospacial aspect of Bigfoot. That being looking at reports and determining location vs. time in order to find a pattern of some kind. Same thing we have been doing ever since. He also lead an expedition into Northern California before that with the financial support of Tom Slick to no avail. Even had guns and a helicopter standing by 24/7 just in case they got one. Again, to no avail and kind of what we are doing right now. So what's left? I truly thought the nest find in the Olympic Peninsula was going to be it. It wasn't but the must recent find just this past February supports the initial discovery back in May of 2015 so maybe this second find will be enough to get science to stay with the phenomenon to get an answer to what/who is building the structures. The thing is, we don't have to be chasing misinformation, disinformation or hoaxes. We have enough real world science to keep the ball rolling and that's where our time and effort should go. And I'm convinced real world science can solve this thing. But they need our support in the way of letting scientists know that we WANT the answer. And not just one person either, but many people need to voice that request. Things can and will change if science hears from enough of us. I'm convinced of that. And doing that with any success will be much better that seeing or good friend Norseman take such a risk with himself that we all know could bring some serious trouble for him. I've been pushing on academia as hard as I can to see if his potential situation can be at all avoided. I agree with his goals and methods but, good grief, if he doesn't have to go through with it then he would be so much better off all the way around. Well it wouldn’t be for me. I enjoy getting outdoors! But if we don’t have to kill one to prove it to science? All the better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, norseman said: Well it wouldn’t be for me. I enjoy getting outdoors! But if we don’t have to kill one to prove it to science? All the better. I have always believed your ethic in that regard and today is no different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, ShadowBorn said: See that just makes my point more clear when one post smurk on my post. Rather then post a comment they hide behind a silly smurk. Just like all the down votes that Hiflier gets on his posting of what he believes to be true . Not to be rude but I think the smirks may come from English not being your native tongue and sometimes it’s hard to make out what your trying to convey. It’s not a knock on you, I appreciate your effort but I don’t always get the gist of your post. That being said I’m not the source of your smirk. As far as hiflier getting downvotes I believe that comes from his pattern of getting an idea and pushing that idea in darn near every topic and then being upset that everyone on the forum not falling in line with his idea. Seems every few months there’s a new drum to beat. Just my opinion of course. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, Twist said: As far as hiflier getting downvotes I believe that comes from his pattern of getting an idea and pushing that idea in darn near every topic and then being upset that everyone on the forum not falling in line with his idea. I don't get upset, Twist. I only debate my position with logic. You on the other hand never address the debate pro or con. You only seem to criticize. Each to their own. But with so little to work on as far as Bigfoot discovery, and even if you don't give a whit about discovery, it would be a nice change to hear some kind of alternate method or idea that's better than what I propose. Not just opinion, but an honest to goodness method to deploy. Again, I don't think you give a whit one way or another but you being a part of the solution would be a nice change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twist Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 I’ve made it clear many times, for science I believe it will take a body on a slab. Can happen serendipitously via a car/truck/natural cause or via a hunter that has the means. Pretty sure I’ve stated that numerous times I just don’t repeat it in every post and every topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeZimmer Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 A lot of views expressed here are generally well articulated. I thank people for contributing to the thread. In line with the original topic, some of the views here may be correct. They cannot all be. I only get back to BFF sporadically, since for me it is more than entertainment, but a minor passion. Thinking about Sasquatch is for me, a vehicle for exploring some of the issues around epistemology and belief. However, the existence of relict hominoids is one of the least important issues of the day as far as I can see. Although it is quite compelling for me and others who come to this forum, it is not on the radar of most folks. One of my passions is determining the truth or falsity of things, and I have many notebooks filled with amateur ramblings on epistemology and belief, starting with early thoughts jotted down in the 1960s, and now maintain a generally unread blog on this topic. Also, writing things down on this fulfills a need in me I suppose. It also helps me clarify my thoughts. If you are somewhat masochistic, see https://ephektikoi.wordpress.com/2020/04/30/the-fundamental-problem-is-belief/ " ... It has always seemed to me that the problems in the world are both epistemological and ontological. Even more fundamental a problem, maybe the fundamental problem, is belief. How do we know what to believe? How do we know what is true? These are not trivial questions – not abstract, not divorced from everyday concerns. That does not mean that they are everyday concerns for most people; they definitely are not. However perhaps they should be. ..."" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 There's a difference, Twist. A LOT of people say "body on a slab". No one says e-DNA. "Body on a slab" comes up all the time from members. e-DNA? Almost never. Emailing academia? Absolutely never. You yourself brings up "body on a slab" quite a bit, but do I ever harp on you for it? Nope, I don't. I expect the same courtesy from you. Especially since what I encourage people to do doesn't come from anyone else. With enough people things can change and things can get done. It doesn't help when you discourage the effort every chance you get. 10 minutes ago, MikeZimmer said: How do we know what to believe? How do we know what is true? These are not trivial questions – not abstract, not divorced from everyday concerns @MikeZimmer We CAN know what is true if it's something we really want for ourselves. It has been my message from the beginning. It can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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