Minnesota Ice Man

[Guest krakatoa]

I don't know, fellas. Even back then, if you have a real body of something that is so significant, I have a tough time thinking you'd parade it around as some nickel and dime sideshow. It doesn't make sense!

It makes perfect sense. You did whatever it took to make a buck.

Doesn't he also search for Chupacabra, and the Loch Ness monster?

No, he doesn't so far as I know. He writes about all manner of critters real, fake or unverified, and their diverse impact on our culture. I don't know that he's actively searching for any of them.

My take from reading Cryptomundo is that he's generally operating from a position of curiosity and mild skepticism for most claims.

I haven't read his books though, so I don't know how he presents himself there.

[Guest]

I keep seeing the words "proven hoax" in this thread. If that were the case, then why are we still discussing the MIM all these years later? Is it all a conspiracy to keep the story alive to sell books? If there were no mystery left, I would think the story would have simply gone away, dismissed, and unable to inspire curiosity. More fair than pronouncing that the hoaxing was "proven" would be to say "likely hoax" or "there is a very strong argument for hoax." Since the original evidence itself disappeared before it could be "proved" a hoax, pronouncement of absolute proof seems difficult, if nigh impossible, and, IMO, arrogant. The absence the of the original MIM makes for easy pickings for skeptics. I feel that it is both unfair and unwise to pronounce something a hoax that still has elements of mystery. It really cannot be proven a hoax at all, as we can't time travel or locate with certainty the body that S and H viewed. It may be proved a hoax to the satisfaction of some skeptics. That is fine by me. There is mystery in the story, and without the original evidence itself, we can only say "might be" or "probably was." Proclaiming something a "proven hoax" seems rather close to trolling...So I have issues with proclamations such as that, regardless of evidence. It reeks of the worst kind of skepticism: blind, closed-minded, and self-centered. Denialism in the face of some credible counter-evidence, IMO. Could Sanderson and Heuvelmans have been taken by a carnie operator? Maybe. Ph.D believers can be swindled, or maybe they had a vested interest in the reality of the thing. The fact that both men were so strongly convinced of the reality of what they saw seems evidence of the possibility that it was the real deal, IMO. Plenty of other interesting info out there on the MIM as well. So, hoax it might be, but proven it ain't.

Edit to add that "lack of evidence" can be fertile soil for the overly-ambitious skeptic, as well as the "apologists."

Edited September 30, 2011 by notgiganto

[Guest Kronprinz Adam]

I'm reading a book and it had a short piece about the Minnesota Ice Man.It was the first I had heard of this story.

I lean hard towards hoax ....but a fun Google if you haven't heard the story before.

Hi Central PA. In fact, I read the storty when I was a teenager, some friend gave me a spanish book called "World of the Unknown". There was a black & white foto with the Iceman and some story, that some sailors picked him up (inside a block of ice) when fishing somewhere in russian waters...but the creature was clearly shot with a gun.

According to many witnesses, there was an ongoing exhibition of the Minessota Iceman back in the 60s in many fairs and shows in the USA. Besides the sailor's story, there was many other stories as well.

1. The creature was killed in Vietnam during the war there, and it was brought to USA in secrecy....(therefore, the Minessota Iceman corresponds to the vietnamese wildman or Nguoi Rung).

2. The creature was killed in Minessota. A hunter encountered a group of creatures, killed one and returned some time later. He found the creature frozen in ice. He stored it on a giant freezer.

3. To prevent legal problems (transporting a nearly-human corpse), the creature was changed by a model, but it was not so accurate as the real thing.

4. The creature was examined by zoologists Heuvelmans and Sanderson, and they concluded it could be real. Was not human and not an ape, but it was a combination of characteristics of both (and it was a strange combination, indeed!!!)

5. Another theory is that the creature was a hoax from the very beginning (but a very convincing one!!!)

Of course none of these stories has been verified.

Greetings!!

K. Adam.

[kitakaze]

I keep seeing the words "proven hoax" in this thread. If that were the case, then why are we still discussing the MIM all these years later? Is it all a conspiracy to keep the story alive to sell books? If there were no mystery left, I would think the story would have simply gone away, dismissed, and unable to inspire curiosity. More fair than pronouncing that the hoaxing was "proven" would be to say "likely hoax" or "there is a very strong argument for hoax." Since the original evidence itself disappeared before it could be "proved" a hoax, pronouncement of absolute proof seems difficult, if nigh impossible, and, IMO, arrogant. The absence the of the original MIM makes for easy pickings for skeptics. I feel that it is both unfair and unwise to pronounce something a hoax that still has elements of mystery. It really cannot be proven a hoax at all, as we can't time travel or locate with certainty the body that S and H viewed. It may be proved a hoax to the satisfaction of some skeptics. That is fine by me. There is mystery in the story, and without the original evidence itself, we can only say "might be" or "probably was." Proclaiming something a "proven hoax" seems rather close to trolling...So I have issues with proclamations such as that, regardless of evidence. It reeks of the worst kind of skepticism: blind, closed-minded, and self-centered. Denialism in the face of some credible counter-evidence, IMO.

Proven hoax...

Mysteries are fun, proven hoaxes are not. Deny the hoax and keep the mystery alive. Round and round goes the wheel of Bigfoot belief.

Could Sanderson and Heuvelmans have been taken by a carnie operator? Maybe. Ph.D believers can be swindled, or maybe they had a vested interest in the reality of the thing.

Ivan Sanderson pronounced giant penguin in Florida from a old boonswoggler's dinosaur hoax...

Ivan Sanderson crossed the line from hoax enabler to hoaxer. He knew Frank Hansen was a hoaxer, he knew the entire thing was bogus, and he kept sweeping it under the rug so that he could use Hansen and the "mystery" to flog fortean enthusiast books.

I'm quite sure the 31 BFF members who acknowledged the MIM's proof as a hoax are not Internet trolls.

[gigantor]

hey Kit, where did you get that pic from? is that supposed to be the MIM?

[Guest Kerchak]

Mysteries are fun, proven hoaxes are not. Deny the hoax and keep the mystery alive. Round and round goes the wheel of Bigfoot belief.

Um, I have 'Bigfoot belief'. I don't buy that the MIM was ever real.

Can you please stop lumping 'Bigfoot belief' in one neat and tidy folder? Many of us (most I would say) are capable of critical thinking and evaluating situations based on the evidence.

I bet you will find that many, perhaps even most, Bigfoot 'believers' on the forum don't accept the MIM as authentic.

[Guest LAL]

hey Kit, where did you get that pic from? is that supposed to be the MIM?

I posted it on the other thread. It's the model Rick West photographed when he visted Hansen not long before Hansen's death. I scanned it from Rick West's book.

[Guest]

So that pic is the later model that was exhibited, not necessarily the thing that S and H saw, correct?

[georgerm]

History

Frank Hansen owned the "iceman", and made a number of contradictory statements as to its origin and how he obtained it. These statements led to criticism and charges of a hoax. Hansen reportedly claimed he had a real frozen creature and a replica, but that he only exhibited the replica due to the original's value and fragility. While touring with the iceman, Hansen was reportedly detained by Canadian customs officials, who were concerned he was transporting a cadaver, or a possible health risk. Hansen reportedly contacted his senator, Walter Mondale, who was able to "pull the right strings to let the Iceman come back home."

Two trained scientists and researchers of cryptozoology, Ivan Sanderson and Dr. Bernard Heuvelmans, examined the "iceman" and concluded it was a genuine creature, noting "putrefaction where some of the flesh had been exposed from the melted ice." Heuvelmans wrote a scientific paper about the iceman and even named it as a new species with neanderthal affinities, Homo pongoides, and theorised it was shot and killed in Vietnam during the Vietnam War.[1] Sanderson wrote an article for Argosy magazine and spoke about the "iceman" on television. The Smithsonian Institution was reportedly briefly interested in the iceman, asking John Napier to investigate, then suggesting the FBI investigate, due to reports that the creature had been shot and killed through one eye.[1] Shortly thereafter, the iceman disappeared, withdrawn from public display, Hansen said, by the California-based owner. It was later replaced by a similar, though different, exhibit which was clearly a model and not as accurate in appearance as the original. In a 1995 interview, Hansen reported that "I never did find out" if the iceman was genuine. In 2008, Verne Langdon appeared on the "Bigfoot Show" podcast to reveal that the Iceman was a hoax created by a Hollywood model maker[2]. It should also be noted that, years before the creation of the Minnesota Iceman, Frank Hansen approached Universal Studios in a failed attempt to create a fake crashed flying saucer and aliens[3].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Iceman

[Guest]

Proven hoax...

Ivan Sanderson crossed the line from hoax enabler to hoaxer. He knew Frank Hansen was a hoaxer, he knew the entire thing was bogus, and he kept sweeping it under the rug so that he could use Hansen and the "mystery" to flog fortean enthusiast books.

I'm quite sure the 31 BFF members who acknowledged the MIM's proof as a hoax are not Internet trolls.

And he took in Heuvelmans, too?

I can see from the repetition of your former argument and your typical shenanigans that you missed the point of my post. Or maybe you understood it perfectly well. <sigh>

Those are some VERY strong - daresay libelous - accusations you are throwing around. Pretty much saying that Sanderson was defrauding the public by knowingly misrepresenting the mysteries he reported. Do you have some proof that they (he and Hanson) were in cahoots, or that Sanderson was literally turning a blind eye to things fraudulent? How do you know that he did this, besides your own estimation? You would need some pretty good evidence to say that he was "in on things" rather than just taken in by some folks. I think that your proclamations are largely your own judgements based on circumstantial evidenceand a hefty amount of bias. I won't comment on whether or not I BELIEVE they hold water. Just be careful where your own judgement ends and your accusations begin, Kit. The point of my former post was not to dispute claims of hoaxing, more to dispute claims of absolute proof in the absence of much proof.

[Guest LAL]

So that pic is the later model that was exhibited, not necessarily the thing that S and H saw, correct?

Correct. This is a shot of the chest from Bernard Heuvelmans' book:

And a page from West's book with his description:

[kitakaze]

Um, I have 'Bigfoot belief'. I don't buy that the MIM was ever real.

Can you please stop lumping 'Bigfoot belief' in one neat and tidy folder? Many of us (most I would say) are capable of critical thinking and evaluating situations based on the evidence.

Wolftrax, Bittermonk, Furious George, Rockinkt, lots and lots and lots. Because I acknowledge hoax denial and hoaxer enabling is rampant in Bigfootery, it doesn't mean I attribute this to everybody. You are a MIM skeptic. I acknowledge your skepticism.

I bet you will find that many, perhaps even most, Bigfoot 'believers' on the forum don't accept the MIM as authentic.

I would be the person who quoted the results from the MIM poll showing 31 BFF members accepted the proof of the hoax. I'm quite sure that was not 31 skeptcs or fence-sitters.

[Guest Alpinist]

Bumping to front page for great thread and photos ...

[Guest brucescotland]

The story of the iceman was what got me interested in cryptids when i was a kid. If we assume that the corpse frozen in ice studied by Sanderson and Huevelmans was the real deal and not that ridiculous latex model it was later replaced with, what do you guys think it could off been? a juvenile bigfoot maybe??

[Guest LAL]

Something Asian. The thumb gets me.

Frank Hansen convinced Peter Byrne and two filmmakers the story that he shot it himself was the true one. Heuvelmans believed it was smuggled out of Vietnam in a body bag.

If Hansen was involved in smuggling and displayed a real corpse he had reason to be paranoid about state and international laws. "It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you."

Edited April 16, 2012 by LAL