The Heterodyne Hypothesis

[Cotter]

Wow, what good stuff.

I would like to add one thing for consideration (not sure how this works into anyone's theory, but anyway).

Are you folks familiar with the Tibetan Throat Singers/Monks? Somehow, through circular breathing, they are able to, with one set of vocal chords, acheive multiple tones at the sime time. Creating all sorts of neat sounds.

Perhaps an explanation of one piece of the heterodyning hypothesis?

Sorry if this is a bit unintelligent, but I wanted to add......

[Guest]

Wow, what good stuff. I would like to add one thing for consideration (not sure how this works into anyone's theory, but anyway). Are you folks familiar with the Tibetan Throat Singers/Monks? Somehow, through circular breathing, they are able to, with one set of vocal chords, acheive multiple tones at the sime time. Creating all sorts of neat sounds. Perhaps an explanation of one piece of the heterodyning hypothesis? Sorry if this is a bit unintelligent, but I wanted to add......

C - thanks for bringing up an interesting topic. one probably relevant here.

I read somewhere Neanderthal remains were found that included a hyoid bone (a small, horseshoe-shaped

bone in the throat below the larynx) and somehow that meant Neanderthals had speech.

That is largely speculation but if BF is actually making the variety of sounds that have been

attributed to it, (including speech) it may have one, too. At any rate, it must have either

a remarkable sound-generating apparatus or a highly-evolved skill-set such as that used by

throat-singers (or both). I don't find any reference to heterodyning and throat-singing

but sound production for throat-singing involves using all kinds of harmonics, the overtone

series, difference tones and the like. Throat-singing isn't limited to Tibet, but is found

in some form in many cultures including the Inuit. Check out these:

http://www.khoomei-shaman.com/throat-singing_e.html

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/inuit.htm

RE

Edited March 29, 2012 by rhellis38

[Guest BFSleuth]

Great post rrellis38!

I started exploring throat singing and ran across this video, one of the better ones that demonstrate the upper range of throat singing, almost like a fluttering whistle:

[bipedalist]

The first ten posts or so on this thread covered the singing pretty well too.

[Guest tirademan]

<p>

..reported ability to leap 25-30 feet at a time, the end result is that you have a plausible naturalistic explanation of something which at first seems so mysterious as to be supernatural....Back on the old board I seem to remember Tirademan providing some vintage clippings detailing native american legends regarding unusual BF abilities, perhaps if he is monitoring this thread he may have a comment.

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<p>Well, trying to stick to the topic, here are stories I've found that mention strange noises. I focused on stories that mention strange sounds like thunder, the humming bird etc.  I've got many more that mention unearthly howls, shrieks, screams, growls, barks and whistling.</p>

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<p>As to large leaps, I know I've got a couple more, but found this one from Michigan.</p>

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<p>tirademan</p>

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<p>ps - Prehistoric Fisherman, your handle is the same as the name given to the fake stuffed bigfoot in Hayward Wisconsin at the Freshwater fishing museum. They also have the "Son of the Primative Fisherman" there. I was VERY surprised to see them last year when I went there for the first time!  I'll start a thread so that everyone can see them...pretty impressive to me!</p>

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[Guest spurfoot]

Tirademan, those newspaper reports conclusively establish that the infrasound is due to BF beating their chest. Mystery solved. It is real infrasound.

[Guest Prehistoric Fisherman]

I read somewhere Neanderthal remains were found that included a hyoid bone (a small, horseshoe-shaped

bone in the throat below the larynx) and somehow that meant Neanderthals had speech.

That is largely speculation but if BF is actually making the variety of sounds that have been

attributed to it, (including speech) it may have one, too. At any rate, it must have either

a remarkable sound-generating apparatus or a highly-evolved skill-set such as that used by

throat-singers (or both).

Well, Neanderthals and modern humans are considered subspecies of the same species (Homo Sapiens), so the general consensus in paleoanthropology would be that they almost certainly had a language of some sort. The most current physical evidence seems to support that conclusion, probably leaning more towards being similar to humans than away from it. On the other hand, there is a school of thought (championed by Philip Lieberman) that basically goes along the lines that Neanderthal speech was very limited. I read the original paper by him years ago and always felt it was 'a load of dingo's kidneys'. The efforts by this group today is to criticize the current evidence as flawed or insufficient.

See:

http://sjohn30.tripod.com/id1.html

http://creation.com/...ogical-analysis

- To my chagrin the above is from a Creationist website, but other then some brief comments at the bottom (in which Grover Krantz is quoted) it seems to me to be a highly technical examination of the physical evidence from an anthropological perspective. The possible bias would be they wish to prove that Neanderthals are basically human, and therefore not an example of full-blown human evolution (though perhaps accepting a minimal amount of evolution). Since it seems to be a decent summary of the appropriate evidence on the topic I grudgingly include it. If main-stream science made the bulk of its technical papers openly available to the public, instead of placed behind pay-walls, perhaps something equally detailed might have been found elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia....havior#Language

http://en.wikipedia....gensis#Language

http://en.wikipedia....gin_of_language

The first ten posts or so on this thread covered the singing pretty well too.

Interestingly enough, the first post in this thread is a small treasure trove of the 'moderate strangeness' type of phenomena that I think infrasound explains.

Ultimately, when one collects the tales of 'samurai chatter', use of native american words (according to some legends of the native americans), and the rare cases of mimicry (my personal favorite, apologies to the chickens: http://www.bigfooten...ies/zoobies.htm ), the conclusion can possibly be reached that BF have a vocal apparatus not dissimilar to that of humans, and possibly use a language. Since they are hominids rather than apes, this is less surprising. One possible explanation of the shared characteristic is the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis, an idea I discussed with John Green and other researchers back in the day (I think I sent him a copy of the book). My point was the explanatory power of the hypothesis extend to BF as well, which can swim and dive, something which mere apes cannot do, and which in many areas appears to be habitually riparian as much as arboreal. There were other points, but I haven't thought much about the topic in years, other than to mention it once on the old board in some other circumstance.

http://en.wikipedia...._ape_hypothesis

"Humans have a Descended larynx, which in most mammals is situated in the nasal cavity from which it temporarily descends for vocalizing or panting. In humans, unlike in the great apes and other primates, the larynx descends to the throat during infancy and stays there permanently. A descended larynx is also found in some aquatic mammals. It facilitates closing the air tract when diving and makes it possible to inhale a large quantity of air through the mouth when surfacing."

The Wikipedia article well documents the arguments against the hypothesis (which is by far the consensus position), but doesn't go into much detail on the 'pro' side. One of the main arguments against the theory seems to be that it explains 'too much' of human evolution. I would suggest anyone interested look into Elaine Morgan's books on the subject and/or the BBC documentary examining the idea, and there appears to be a TED talk as well (which I haven't seen):

http://en.wikipedia....an_%28writer%29

http://www.ted.com/t...uatic_apes.html

TiradeMan, thanks for the assist. The posts I were referring to were about the alleged supernatural abilities according to the beliefs of the Native Americans. Basically they seemed to imply a hypnotic ability, the usual disappearing, and things like that. I just finished my post and saw you had posted, and I'm really short on time at the moment so I haven't had time to go over your current post. I'll try to do so ASAP and perhaps post tomorrow.

ps - Prehistoric Fisherman, your handle is the same as the name given to the fake stuffed bigfoot in Hayward Wisconsin at the Freshwater fishing museum. They also have the "Son of the Primative Fisherman" there. I was VERY surprised to see them last year when I went there for the first time! I'll start a thread so that everyone can see them...pretty impressive to me!

Fake, I resent that Sir, I'm a full blooded Wisconsinite the same as anyone else, just because I'm covered with hair doesn't mean I'm less of a man, err... wild man. ... Darn, I've been found out, and my son too. Now the hunters will descend on us. I'll have to flee this cozy little museum and take to the woods again...

Edited March 30, 2012 by Prehistoric Fisherman

[Spader]

C - thanks for bringing up an interesting topic. one probably relevant here.

I read somewhere Neanderthal remains were found that included a hyoid bone (a small, horseshoe-shaped

bone in the throat below the larynx) and somehow that meant Neanderthals had speech.

That is largely speculation but if BF is actually making the variety of sounds that have been

attributed to it, (including speech) it may have one, too. At any rate, it must have either

a remarkable sound-generating apparatus or a highly-evolved skill-set such as that used by

throat-singers (or both). I don't find any reference to heterodyning and throat-singing

but sound production for throat-singing involves using all kinds of harmonics, the overtone

series, difference tones and the like. Throat-singing isn't limited to Tibet, but is found

in some form in many cultures including the Inuit. Check out these:

http://www.khoomei-shaman.com/throat-singing_e.html

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/inuit.htm

RE

Sorry, can't add to reply due to iPhone.

[Guest]

Last night as I sat around with friends talking, my two cats started to purr. Both are 15+ pounds cats. One has a really really loud purr and the other a much softer purr.Through the low noise of the TV, 4 people talking and the cats purring I heard a buzzing/fluttering sound. Instinct told me mosquito and I swatted, But the sound continued for 2 more seconds. And then I remembered about my 5 hour hike yesterday with no mosquitoes....They say that a cats purr can hit the right frequencies to help heal bones etc.

Has anybody else heard/felt this with cat purrs?

[Guest Jodie]

I wondered about the aquatic ape theory before I ever read anything written by Elaine Morgan. Since then, she has become one of my of my hero's. What a spunky old gal, how could you not appreciate her enthusiasm and tenacity.

I'm not sure that I agree with everything she says regarding the significance of lack of hair but I certainly think it's a shame that the theory is generally overlooked. There are land animals that have the ability to use echolocation, so I'm not sure why it has never been considered as a serious possibility in regards to bigfoot and how they might potentially communicate if there is any connection to an aquatic ancestor.

If what Scott Nelson thinks has any validity what so ever, it may be that he is overlooking something in his approach in thinking of bigfoot as having a linear language or that all of the sounds that they make can be heard in our range of hearing. Maybe he should look at some of the research done for cetacean communication and see where that leads him.

They now are considering the possibility that cetaceans have a form of communication that creates a 3D picture in what it is they want to communicate as opposed to language like ours that is linear, much like an ultrasound picture of a fetus in the womb.

I do know that some blind people have adapted using clicks to maneuver through the environment so the potential is there for primates to develop the ability, we just don't have any evidence that it has ever occurred as a primary mode of communication in primates before.

As for the throat singing, I had no idea a human being could produce such sounds. If you have a creature with a broader range of producing sound than a human's capacity to hear then I can see how the heterodyne hypothesis might work. I've heard the hummingbird sound before but never saw anything, I just dismissed it as either being buzzed by a hummingbird or a larger insect.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Jodie

[Guest tirademan]

Tirademan, those newspaper reports conclusively establish that the infrasound is due to BF beating their chest. Mystery solved. It is real infrasound.

Spur, I don't think the old newspaper reports prove much except that people have claimed to have seen (and heard) hair-covered man apes in the woods for a very long time...and under a wide variety of circumstances.

But in that particular story, who's to say the squatch wasn't beating it's chest and emitting infrasound?

tirademan

[Guest spurfoot]

Tirademan, that is a good point. Both could be going on. Maybe even three things going on if you include the possibility of ultrasound in addition. Certainly, bipedalist testifies to a high pitched sound. The intense effect that people claim seems very hard to achieve with just beating the chest. In any event, those newspaper articles you have clearly establish that chest beating really does occur. And, BF indisputably has an enormous barrel chest.

[bipedalist]

Here is the clip of a file recorded at 3:30am or so on 5-24-11 on the backside of a mountain that really had little access for those wishing to stumble around at night..... the ringing sound (approx. 13 sec. mark) is sort of an enigma. This larger file involved substantial direct mimicry of some whistles I had used in a research endeavor..... I don't believe raccoons have this imitative capacity let alone the ability to make a ringing type sound. I also picked up woodknocks, samurai and some bass drumming type sounds in this same file (and the outburst lasted a good 7 1/2 minutes) but I've clipped this just for example of the ringing.

Anyway, throwing this out there as an indication of some weird sounds that can be recorded. The file had to be heavily filtered for noise and distance of the whistles as my backup recorder made the capture and not my more direct and closer recorder with external mics which failed to operate properly that particular evening (prob. my fault as I was new to that particular device at the time). It was recorded on a ws700 Olympus on .mp3.

As this file is posted up as an example of high frequency tones emitted by unknowns I will not waste alot of bandwidth discussing (or defending) this file in this thread. If you have questions/comments beyond the topic you can PM me with them.

Edited to add: headphones highly recommended it goes without saying...... PLAY LOUD

52411ringingws700.mp3

Edited April 1, 2012 by bipedalist

[Guest]

I just spent some time reading this old entry on the web.

http://www.oregonbigfoot.com/blog/bigfoot/nvcode-part-eight-infrasound/

I'm fairly new to this field and haven't read a lot of what's out there, but this seemed

well-researched and I didn't think Ms Williams was somehow not to be trusted.

Perhaps I'm becoming overly sensitized to hoaxes and hoaxers. Wonder why?

RE

[Guest Prehistoric Fisherman]

I wondered about the aquatic ape theory before I ever read anything written by Elaine Morgan. Since then, she has become one of my of my hero's. What a spunky old gal, how could you not appreciate her enthusiasm and tenacity.

I'm not sure that I agree with everything she says regarding the significance of lack of hair but I certainly think it's a shame that the theory is generally overlooked.

In honor of your "Hunger Games" avatar, "May the odds be ever in your favor", especially while squatch'n.

The upshot for me in Aquatic Ape Theory is that it seems to indicate that some shared characteristics (presumed voice box in part due to the ability to swim without drowning, bipedalism, etc.) of BF with mankind may imply that BF's ancestors went along with ours part of the way on the alleged aquatic evolutionary excursion, but not as far as ours did. In other words they have some of the unique "aquatic" traits but less than we do. Paradoxically, they seem far more amphibious than we tend to be at this point in our evolution (living in swamp and marsh conditions depending upon the geography, something that is very difficult for humans to do (fungal infections being one serious problem, for example). It might be possible that aquatic evolution got us started on a trend that then a separate mutation capitalized on, ultimately leading away from water as a selective force. Neotony ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neotony ) might have taken over and continued the trend that aquatic evolution had started, and it would be interesting if other aquatic mammals followed a similar course.

If the scientific community eventually comes to believe that BF is real, and shares both bipedalism and a human-like airway, it would be hard for non-aquatic hypotheses to plausibly explain this. "We evolved bipedalism, and the next thing was evidently speech?" would ultimately be the question to answer.

BF doing echolocation using ultrasound could be a possibility. They are much better at moving in the dark than we are, and that's what bats rely on for navigation. Large animals that use echolocation using ultrasound tend to be highly specialized ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_echolocation ). In terms of terrestrial animals, only Microbats and insects seem to be known to generate ultrasound ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound ). I think as a general trend smaller terrestrial animals tend to produce higher frequency sounds and larger terrestrial animals tend to produce lower frequency sounds, and this is tied to the length of the airway and other size-based traits. Primordial dwarfs and small children speak with very high pitched voices, whereas very tall men tend to speak with deeper voices. There is a great deal of individual variation and size isn't the only issue (even something like hormones as a telling effect on pitch) but as a general trend I think this holds true.

The next issue is that a given species or individual can have a considerable range in pitch. Musically, my own voice goes from a deep base to tenor (at least it did). I can emit (given the proper coaxing) shrieks to a growl, and of course I can whistle. I think if we apply a BF's larger airway to this human model one would get similar -- but more extreme -- results. We see the same in elephants, which can produce very powerful low frequency infrasound, deafening roars, and high pitched trumpeting noises (obviously their trunk is a specialization that might make their range even more extreme).

A handful of humans have learned to echo-locate, but this is using audible sound (clicks) rather than ultrasound, and does not seem effective compared to the abilities of bats or whales. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation ) Could BF use audible sound to echo-locate, perhaps that's what the whistles are for? Perhaps, but to do so while moving would mean a fairly stead series of whistles or other noises would be requirred. Still, these ideas shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, even if to me they don't seem probable. It never hurts to research an odd idea or two, or so I've heard.

<p>ps - Prehistoric Fisherman, your handle is the same as the name given to the fake stuffed bigfoot in Hayward Wisconsin at the Freshwater fishing museum. They also have the "Son of the Primative Fisherman" there. I was VERY surprised to see them last year when I went there for the first time! I'll start a thread so that everyone can see them...pretty impressive to me!</p>

TM, good job on ferreting out the origin of my 'handle' (I hope my small joke about it was received in the spirit that was intended). I too have my own Hayward story and would be glad to add it to your thread (which I look forward to reading) if you would like, though its a bit off-topic here.

Spur, I don't think the old newspaper reports prove much except that people have claimed to have seen (and heard) hair-covered man apes in the woods for a very long time...and under a wide variety of circumstances. But in that particular story, who's to say the squatch wasn't beating it's chest and emitting infrasound? tirademan

Exactly, audible sounds (from chest beating to whistles) can neither be used to rule out the presence of inaudible (infra or ultra) sounds or to be proof of it. The phenomena in question is one where there is typically no conscious detection of BF, yet through some sensory "back channel" the presence of something unusual is detected before the actual observation. Additionally, shoe-horned into the topic are unusual neurological or psychological effects of the alleged BF presence, known or unknown. I guess added to that list is the ear-fluttering, which is a physical sensation. Anything else I missed?

Last night as I sat around with friends talking, my two cats started to purr. Both are 15+ pounds cats. One has a really really loud purr and the other a much softer purr.Through the low noise of the TV, 4 people talking and the cats purring I heard a buzzing/fluttering sound. Instinct told me mosquito and I swatted, But the sound continued for 2 more seconds. And then I remembered about my 5 hour hike yesterday with no mosquitoes....They say that a cats purr can hit the right frequencies to help heal bones etc.

Has anybody else heard/felt this with cat purrs?

The Wikipedia article on infrasound did mention felines if I remember right, it just didn't specify which size in that sentence or whether they were domestic!

On the other hand we have a cat who is probably pushing 20lbs that doesn't seem able to purr, so I'm probably not the guy to ask.

Here is the clip of a file recorded at 3:30am or so on 5-24-11 on the backside of a mountain that really had little access for those wishing to stumble around at night..... the ringing sound (approx. 13 sec. mark) is sort of an enigma.

Bipedalist,

I'm stuck with laptop speakers at the moment. On them, what I'm hearing doesn't seem to be different at 13s than from the rest of it. I'll listen at home. If I could get an unfiltered version, perhaps with several seconds of ambient noise without calls (uncompressed format would be best, but beggers can't be choosers), I might be able to give re-filtering it a try. Other than that, it could be bird noises or primate sounds from what I can hear at the moment. I myself have heard (back when I monitoring with headphones in the field) what sounded like a troupe of chimps having a heck of a time, but by the time the tape recorder I was using got through with it you couldn't hear anything over the insect sounds. Were they barred owls or primates? Well, to my ears it sounded like the latter... In any case my audio torturing skills are at your disposal.

I just spent some time reading this old entry on the web.

http://www.oregonbig...ght-infrasound/

I'm fairly new to this field and haven't read a lot of what's out there, but this seemed

well-researched and I didn't think Ms Williams was somehow not to be trusted.

I ran across Liz Von Muggenthaler regarding infrasound some time back, in a similar Autumn Williams article, if not this very one (as well as a few other sources). As far as I can tell she's a legitimate scientific researcher. There are a couple of issues with using her as a scientific reference. For one, as described in the article you mentioned she didn't go to graduate school. I have no issues with that, but its not going to convince other academics that's she's obviously an authority to be bowed to. Secondly, she did work at Lake Champlain researching their resident lake monster. Again, I don't have anything against that, but run that by any Skeptic and she'll be considered a cryptozoologist and therefore [in James Earl Jones voice] "Rebel Scum" like the rest of us... no matter what other good work she has done.

As for Ms. Williams, she's been in the field for a long time and done a certain bit of self-promotion. Sometimes that opens doors and sometimes that can become a huge detriment. I think there's been a bit of a flap about a book, and if you hadn't noticed the rest of that NVCODE Blog post she's making is really out there. But probably honest, and that's better than some people we might mention. In any case its probably off-topic here. But occasionally I get out on a limb too, way out there, and sometimes there's someone jumping on it trying to make it snap off. Maybe Spurfoot's out on a limb starting this thread too? This is cryptozoology? It is pretty far out, right? Can't get anywhere playing it safe all the time, right?

In any case, its an excellent article to bring up here, including this bit which describes the mechanism in mammals:

"Most large mammals use infrasound, too numerous to mention. We have discovered Rhino, Okapi, Giraffe, Hippo, Tiger, Lion, etc. Infrasound production in some animals is sometimes difficult to discern, but we do know that it is Helmholtz resonance in Giraffe and Okapi, in which an enclosed volume of air (lungs) is coupled to the outside (neck) by one degree of freedom (larynx, or nose). Measurements of the entire resonator system are taken into account, but basically the length of the neck dictates the frequency of the sound. The longer, the lower. Remember the Ricola cough ads…? Where the guy is with that 8 ft horn in the Alps? Same theory.

In the case of other animals it may be internal resonance such as sinuses in the skull, neck skin flap, or body cavity resonance."