Losing The Faith....

[Incorrigible1]

Many researchers are encountering them, you do realize this right?

These many researchers choose not to carry a camera?

[Guest]

These many researchers choose not to carry a camera?

Incorrigible, if a person has never had an encounter, he simply isn't going to understand just what the situation is like with one nearby. You think its just a matter of pointing a camera and saying 'say cheese'! Most can't afford one of those tiny video cameras that is recording everything and will save the last 30 seconds or so once you activate. Most can't afford a micro lens to mount on their hat along with mini dvr.

But back to the main point, I didn't say these researchers were having face-to-face encounters either. Heck, most don't see ever one. And likely the ones that do, have evolved their understanding enough to where they realize its not important enough to violate the trust they are trying to build with them, just to bring a pic to the mass of doubters.

Even with my having 4 visual encounters, which keep in mind has been over a 34 year period, and knowing where some sasquatch generally reside an hour from me, I very much doubt I would EVER hold up a camera at one. I feel it would be suicide while out in the woods alone. I fear I'd become another statistic of being a lost hiker that SAR could find no trace of. Besides, I've already learned that you don't trick them. They know when you are up to stuff. I've had my hidden camera at my feed station and that only caused them to not trust me. Yeah I've gotten a few great audio recordings from the hidden recorder, but I wonder what I lost in establishing a trusting relationship by instead trying to fool them?

Bottom line is, most people simply don't know what its like being near one, and until you can have that real life experience, you will always have trouble relating.

[Drew]

In areas of Africa where wildlife is managed for the purpose of trophy hunting, you will find greater numbers of animals in those areas.

The benefit of having a hunter bring tens of thousands of dollars into a community, is greater than the benefit of indiscriminately killing the animals by the local populace. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/03/070315-hunting-africa.html

In other words, the idea that; because there is no hunting, a species should be thriving is not always true.

Ranchers around Yellowstone are begging for an open season on Wolves, as are the Elk Hunting guides and lodges.

[Huntster]

OK so please confirm, is this following response you saying that you believe they are just a giant ape?

Pretty much, yeah. If there were 20,000 sasquatches in the United States, we'd have one on a slab by now.

No. That was one of the reasons why I believe their numbers to be low. I don't know if they are "just a giant ape" or if they're a primitive hominid, but they don't appear to utilize tools any more than a chimp, and they don't utilize fire, so if they are of the genus homo, they are very primitive.

Forgive me, but this really is a major error in perception of the species that people who don't have encounters commonly share. Sasquatch is very foreign to you isn't it?

Much more foreign than even relatively rare species like wolverines, wolves, and brown bears. I've seen a few wolverines, quite a few wolves, and lots of brown bears, but I've never seen a sasquatch. I've only found one set of footprints in my entire life, and I spend a lot of time in the woods, and have done so from the Mexican border to the Arctic Ocean west of the Rockies.

Yep we have lots of cats in Oregon, but the population decline began long before the ban on hunting cats with dogs took place. We can still hunt cats with a $5 tag for most of the year. OK it may be $8 now.

Without the use of dogs, bait, calls, or lures hunting a cat is a damned difficult thing to do. Essentially, you have to spend a whole lot of time in the right habitat and simply have to luck out.

One of the reasons the wildlife agencies claim for the deer's decline is a hair loss disease, but I'm not so sure. I've got quite a few deer around the house too, but hunting them isn't what I consider hunting. We get a few cats that come through here too but the deer feel more protected near homes I suppose.

No doubt about it. Moose like to calve near human habitation just because the bears are more wary of humans.

Anyway, your relying on wildlife facts and figure comparisons may indeed be where you are going wrong. Heck, who said the bigfoot groups were on the right track?

I certainly never said so. If they had been on the right track, maybe they would have had more successes than they have had.

[Huntster]

It can't be a mistake, because that is all we have: testimony and trace evidence. Those are the same tools that professional biologist use in some habitats to estimate bear populations. It is a common way to estimate some wildlife population densities.

But professional biologists get out to research their subject too. While you're relying on a few groups findings, and putting all these facts & figures together, your not experiencing the species yourself.

True, and neither are the professional wildlife managers.

I don't understand. Is it out of frustration from looking and looking and not having an encounter?

Nope. I've never hunted for a sasquatch. I'm a bit too much of a realist to engage in such an exercise.

So, a few key elements seem to be surfacing to help understand where you are coming from.

1) You are in the camp that thinks Sas are just a giant ape. No wonder you are basing your judgement on figures and tables and biologist reports. Heck, that testimony and trace evidence of bigfoot, is only a small fraction of all encounters for one thing since such a small faction of witnesses ever report. It could be only around 1% of the total number of encounters out there that are even reported. Most people decline the risk of attention. And we may only read about 10% of the total number of encounters to an org like bfro that aren't thrown out by researchers who themselves underestimate the species and discard them because of stuff they don't believe.

You may well be correct, but without confirmation, we will never know, will we?

But the fact remains that no sasquatch carcass (scientific proof) has ever been confirmed, and until it does, we will not get science to recognize and react to the phenomenon.

So there ya go. You are in the Ape camp (no offense intended), and you've never searched for them. No wonder you conclude such low numbers. You are putting together all these facts and figures to validate your conclusion that they must be numbered very low, but you are missing that one component of how Wildlife biologists do come up with their numbers. They go into the field with the express purpose of actively researching the topic of their study. They understand the behavior of their subject from personal observation. You on the other hand are working with black n white numbers and ignoring field experience of researchers since you aren't out there yourself. Many researchers are encountering them, you do realize this right?

Many researchers claim to encounter them, but they have failed to prove their claims. Therefore, it is just more testimony.

You may need to get out and smell the roses Huntster or you will always just see them as this unfathomable creature.

I plan to do just that, but it won't be a weekend rally. It will be a Looooooooooooong hunt, at least 6 months long, and in prime habitat.

[Huntster]

Incorrigible, if a person has never had an encounter, he simply isn't going to understand just what the situation is like with one nearby. You think its just a matter of pointing a camera and saying 'say cheese'! Most can't afford one of those tiny video cameras that is recording everything and will save the last 30 seconds or so once you activate. Most can't afford a micro lens to mount on their hat along with mini dvr.

A simple helmet cam like those used by countless snowmobilers here in Alaska costs as little as $110.

I pay more in fuel for my truck to get to and from my hunting trailheads than that.

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But, really, what good is video? The JREF squad is chomping at the bit to chew up more sasquatch photographic evidence.

But back to the main point, I didn't say these researchers were having face-to-face encounters either. Heck, most don't see ever one. And likely the ones that do, have evolved their understanding enough to where they realize its not important enough to violate the trust they are trying to build with them, just to bring a pic to the mass of doubters.

Then if the encounters are a private interaction not to be shared with the rest of the world, what good is it to share it with the world, especially when the vast majority of folks simply disbelieve it?

Even with my having 4 visual encounters, which keep in mind has been over a 34 year period, and knowing where some sasquatch generally reside an hour from me, I very much doubt I would EVER hold up a camera at one. I feel it would be suicide while out in the woods alone.

They are so intelligent that they understand that their photo has been taken, understand the threat that would entail from the scientific world, and will kill you for taking said photo, but will gently tolerate your presence without the camera?

No wonder I've never seen one. I pack firearms whenever I'm in the woods. Hell, I pack a firearm whenever I'm outside of the home.

Do you understand how difficult this is for many of us to believe? Do you understand why this is so difficult for many of us to believe?

Besides, I've already learned that you don't trick them. They know when you are up to stuff. I've had my hidden camera at my feed station and that only caused them to not trust me. Yeah I've gotten a few great audio recordings from the hidden recorder, but I wonder what I lost in establishing a trusting relationship by instead trying to fool them?

Bottom line is, most people simply don't know what its like being near one, and until you can have that real life experience, you will always have trouble relating.

I'm afraid that you will have a difficult time relating such experience to the rest of the world, and I hope you understand why that is.

[Guest]

I plan to do just that, but it won't be a weekend rally. It will be a Looooooooooooong hunt, at least 6 months long, and in prime habitat.

and then thats prolly when its gonna happen, but only if your guns are more than 20 feet away, sidearm included.....they already know you can kill, so they will test you........

[Huntster]

Huntster, on 24 November 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

I plan to do just that, but it won't be a weekend rally. It will be a Looooooooooooong hunt, at least 6 months long, and in prime habitat.

and then thats prolly when its gonna happen, but only if your guns are more than 20 feet away, sidearm included.....they already know you can kill, so they will test you........

It will be the hunt of a lifetime.

Scratch that.......it will be the poaching experience of a lifetime, because since it is already illegal to shoot a sasquatch, I may as well go all the way and include night vision (also illegal to use for the purpose of hunting in Alaska). I will be seeking a permit to harvest a sasquatch, it will likely be denied, and I will go forth anyway with just trying to see one, and I will be armed while doing so. Thus, I may well get caught with night vision and a large caliber rifle.

The denied permit and my many posts on this forum will hopefully be enough to establish my purpose is what I state it is; to see a sasquatch.

[Guest]

It will be the hunt of a lifetime.

Scratch that.......it will be the poaching experience of a lifetime, because since it is already illegal to shoot a sasquatch, I may as well go all the way and include night vision (also illegal to use for the purpose of hunting in Alaska). I will be seeking a permit to harvest a sasquatch, it will likely be denied, and I will go forth anyway with just trying to see one, and I will be armed while doing so. Thus, I may well get caught with night vision and a large caliber rifle.

The denied permit and my many posts on this forum will hopefully be enough to establish my purpose is what I state it is; to see a sasquatch.

I have a feeling once you see one, you wont want to harvest one........

[Huntster]

I have a feeling once you see one, you wont want to harvest one........

I'm thinking you're correct.

But I'll have the rifle, anyway. I don't go into bear country without it............

[Guest]

Ah yes, the ATC2K, I have two of them. One got chewed by a black bear tho because I didn't take adequate precautions with scent and handling food. Still great little cameras. I've wanted the 3K but that changes as I realize how futile (and counter productive) the attempt is to document them.

Enjoy your time in the woods chasing them. I suspect they will be onto your group upon your initial approach.

Many researchers claim to encounter them, but they have failed to prove their claims. Therefore, it is just more testimony.

They are so intelligent that they understand that their photo has been taken, understand the threat that would entail from the scientific world, and will kill you for taking said photo, but will gently tolerate your presence without the camera?

No wonder I've never seen one. I pack firearms whenever I'm in the woods. Hell, I pack a firearm whenever I'm outside of the home.

Do you understand how difficult this is for many of us to believe? Do you understand why this is so difficult for many of us to believe?

And maybe one day you will see one and not be able to prove your claims. The rest of us will say 'welcome aboard!' lol

They may not understand that their photo is being taken Huntster, but they do understand that we are probably up to something sinister with the strange objects. And they clearly have a uniform desire to have little to do with us. Exactly what their entire perspective of us is, I don't know.... but it definitely involves not trusting us.

I also carry any time I go in the woods, even when looking for them. Ironically in 3 of my visual encounters I had a rifle on me, but I wasn't looking for them at the time either. I was deer or elk hunting. When I do go 'squatching' per se, I carry a 44 mag with heavy ass Buffalo Bores in it. (Man they hurt to shoot!) Not to harm one, but purely as a defensive measure, and a little bit of courage too. lol

I am not saying that encounters are a 'private interaction not to be shared with the world', but exactly how people share what they saw with their eyes other then to share in writing. Humans simply can't mind meld with one another like Vulcans. lol And yes, there are the invariable social or other protective reasons people have for not offering more. Besides, I was there for the experience, not you. Not trying to make that sound selfish, but rather just that its the way it was and not much I can do to enable you to have your own experience.

Of course I understand why it is so difficult (for those who have NEVER had an actual encounter) to believe. That's the nature of the beast Huntster. Always has been from when the first European explorer tried to tell his other party members what he saw. Can't ya just hear the Vikings laughing at the frustrated friend who ends up asking for a swig of grog?

But just m a y b e... , you will have a positive experience out there if you're not hell bent on killing one. Maybe you'll walk away in astonishment like others have. Hope ya do.

As I mentioned in the Enoch thread, I too once planned a trip to kill one with 4 other people. To prove their existence to the entire world. lol That was about 28 years ago. It didn't work out so well but unfortunately there are elements in that story that most will believe even less, so I'll leave that omitted. They know more of what's going on as we chase them then you or I can appreciate.

Edited November 24, 2010 by PragmaticTheorist

[Huntster]

Ah yes, the ATC2K, I have two of them. One got chewed by a black bear tho because I didn't take adequate precautions with scent and handling food. Still great little cameras. I've wanted the 3K but that changes as I realize how futile (and counter productive) the attempt is to document them.

You're saying that you have two helmet cams, you've had multiple encounters with sasquatches, you were unable to get footage, and they somehow know what a helmet cam is and that it is more of a threat than your very existence near them?

Is that accurate?

Enjoy your time in the woods chasing them. I suspect they will be onto your group upon your initial approach.

There will be no group. I hunt alone. And I suspect you're correct that they may know I'm in the area before I see one, but that's all I seek at this point; to see one.

Many researchers claim to encounter them, but they have failed to prove their claims. Therefore, it is just more testimony.

They are so intelligent that they understand that their photo has been taken, understand the threat that would entail from the scientific world, and will kill you for taking said photo, but will gently tolerate your presence without the camera?

No wonder I've never seen one. I pack firearms whenever I'm in the woods. Hell, I pack a firearm whenever I'm outside of the home.

Do you understand how difficult this is for many of us to believe? Do you understand why this is so difficult for many of us to believe?

And maybe one day you will see one and not be able to prove your claims. The rest of us will say 'welcome aboard!' lol

I have already found a high quality footprint trackway that I believe was the real thing, and skeptics and denialists don't accept it. So what? The only detriment to that is having to repeatedly deal with them here.

They may not understand that their photo is being taken Huntster, but they do understand that we are probably up to something sinister with the strange objects. And they clearly have a uniform desire to have little to do with us. Exactly what their entire perspective of us is, I don't know.... but it definitely involves not trusting us.

I believe that very much, but that is also true of most animals.

I am not saying that encounters are a 'private interaction not to be shared with the world', but exactly how people share what they saw with their eyes other then to share in writing. Humans simply can't mind meld with one another like Vulcans. lol And yes, there are the invariable social or other protective reasons people have for not offering more. Besides, I was there for the experience, not you. Not trying to make that sound selfish, but rather just that its the way it was and not much I can do to enable you to have your own experience.

I can accept all that. What is difficult for me to accept is repeated encounters with no photos, especially with something as easy to use as a game cam. Just turn it on and interact. It takes video footage of whatever you're looking at, and with no noise whatsoever.

Of course I understand why it is so difficult (for those who have NEVER had an actual encounter) to believe. That's the nature of the beast Huntster. Always has been from when the first European explorer tried to tell his other party members what he saw. Can't ya just hear the Vikings laughing at the frustrated friend who ends up asking for a swig of grog?

Vikings didn't have access to helmet cams. You claim to have two.

But just m a y b e... , you will have a positive experience out there if you're not hell bent on killing one. Maybe you'll walk away in astonishment like others have. Hope ya do.

Me, too, and I am not hellbent on killing one. That's against the law, I believe they are already too rare, and they may well be of the genus homo.

[Guest]

You're saying that you have two helmet cams, you've had multiple encounters with sasquatches, you were unable to get footage, and they somehow know what a helmet cam is and that it is more of a threat than your very existence near them?

Is that accurate?

Yes I have two of them, one bit the dust. I also didn't use them on my head. I hid them when I felt I was being watched when I left food.

Also keep in perspective, 4 visual encounters in 34 years and not one WHILE I was actually looking for bigfoot. Should I just have a camera implanted in my skull for the next time?

There will be no group. I hunt alone. And I suspect you're correct that they may know I'm in the area before I see one, but that's all I seek at this point; to see one.

Good to hear you are a soloist when you go in the field. I prefer it that way as well. Have a much more enjoyable time elk hunting alone 400 miles away then with a partner. Glad to read its not your mission to kill one. Hope you do see one. And if its a close up experience, make sure to let me know how the last thing you were thinking about in those moments was pulling out a camera.

I have already found a high quality footprint trackway that I believe was the real thing, and skeptics and denialists don't accept it. So what? The only detriment to that is having to repeatedly deal with them here.

Well then at least you have an idea from this side of the fence of how actually seeing one will become. Don't be surprise when the response you have for when they ask "Why didn't you shoot it?", will be, "Because it looked too human." lol

I can accept all that. What is difficult for me to accept is repeated encounters with no photos, especially with something as easy to use as a game cam. Just turn it on and interact. It takes video footage of whatever you're looking at, and with no noise whatsoever.

Vikings didn't have access to helmet cams. You claim to have two.

Again, I don't wear the cams. I don't think I'd want to be wearing one of those during an encounter anyhow. To it I'd feel like I look like one of the Borg on Star Trek Next Generation.

Me, too, and I am not hellbent on killing one. That's against the law, I believe they are already too rare, and they may well be of the genus homo.

Well you seem to be on the right track in many respects and should you have some extended encounters, you will likely evolve your concepts further with the idea of having respect for them enough to not want to shoot one because they do appear primitive human. Of course if you are standing face to face, with a rifle in your hands (like I have), you will also realize just how small your gun really is, and the likely futility of pulling the trigger and an unlikely end result of your surviving. Just don't shoot if that thought crosses your mind, it probably won't work out well.

Edited November 25, 2010 by PragmaticTheorist

[Huntster]

You're saying that you have two helmet cams, you've had multiple encounters with sasquatches, you were unable to get footage, and they somehow know what a helmet cam is and that it is more of a threat than your very existence near them?

Is that accurate?

Yes I have two of them, one bit the dust. I also didn't use them on my head. I hid them when I felt I was being watched when I left food.

Also keep in perspective, 4 visual encounters in 34 years and not one WHILE I was actually looking for bigfoot. Should I just have a camera implanted in my skull for the next time?

Four visual encounters in 34 years beats my 0 visuals in 45 years of outdoors activities. And if you're actually feeding them, I would think that a helmet cam (designed to simply sit on one's hat) wouldn't be much of a bother. There are lots of bozos wearing them while doing dumb things on snowmobiles just to record their dumb activities.

There will be no group. I hunt alone. And I suspect you're correct that they may know I'm in the area before I see one, but that's all I seek at this point; to see one.

Good to hear you are a soloist when you go in the field. I prefer it that way as well. Have a much more enjoyable time elk hunting alone 400 miles away then with a partner. Glad to read its not your mission to kill one. Hope you do see one. And if its a close up experience, make sure to let me know how the last thing you were thinking about in those moments was pulling out a camera.

Oh, yeah. No camera for me, especially on my first encounter. I've seen how well photos are received, even among bigfoot enthusiasts. I don't need that.

I have already found a high quality footprint trackway that I believe was the real thing, and skeptics and denialists don't accept it. So what? The only detriment to that is having to repeatedly deal with them here.

Well then at least you have an idea from this side of the fence of how actually seeing one will become. Don't be surprise when the response you have for when they ask "Why didn't you shoot it?", will be, "Because it looked too human." lol

No doubt. After dealing with hard core skeptics and denialists on another forum, I came to the conclusion that they were a complete waste of time, and they have the collective intelligence of a single gecko. I have no desire whatsoever to fulfill their demands.

I can accept all that. What is difficult for me to accept is repeated encounters with no photos, especially with something as easy to use as a game cam. Just turn it on and interact. It takes video footage of whatever you're looking at, and with no noise whatsoever.

Vikings didn't have access to helmet cams. You claim to have two.

Again, I wasn't wearing the cams. I don't think I'd want to be wearing one of those during an encounter anyhow. To it I'd feel like I look like one of the Borg on Star Trek Next Generation.

Actually, if I could pull off multiple encounters, I think I'd do a head cam. I don't know if I'd share it with the public, but I sure would like to share something like that with my brother and Mrs. Huntster.

Me, too, and I am not hellbent on killing one. That's against the law, I believe they are already too rare, and they may well be of the genus homo.

Well you seem to be on the right track in some respects and should you have some extended encounters, you will likely evolve your concepts further with the idea of having respect for them enough to not want to shoot one. Of course if you are standing face to face with a rifle in your hands, you will also realize just how small your gun really is, and the likely futility of pulling the trigger and leaving an end result of your surviving. Just don't shoot if that thought crosses your mind, it likely won't work out well.

I don't believe that at all. I've shot BIG bears.

I carry very powerful rifles.............

[Guest]

Last item first Huntster, you've heard of the guy in Alaska who had the bears come to his place for some 25 years and would interact with them right?

I know a guy who visited there and have just as equal contact with both griz and blackies (at the same time). This guy has also seen a bf while hunting and he never wants to see one again. He feels more comfortable having a wild griz laying his head in his lap.

It's not merely their size, its their presence as what seems a giant human. They affect you more to your soul. You 'feel' they are not something you are not supposed to shoot. Granted, I was only deer hunting during my face to face 5 yrs ago and had a measly 30-30, but I don't think I'd feel much different if I had an 8 mm Mag. You're not just looking at an animal like a griz. Your looking at possibly your own evolutionary past.

I 'was' feeding them, didn't go up at all last Summer for a few reasons. Sometimes I would inadvertently feed the bears, coyotes, ravens, and squirrels instead.

Don't get me wrong again, I gave trying to video tape a Sas my all. I carried a video camera as well, while I tried using my ATC2k's more strategically. I wasn't really expecting to have another visual encounter but I hoped. I spent whole days in the woods usually, so that head cam really wasn't good for wearing anyhow. Very poor low light value too. And at the price of SD cards when they first came out and that one only holds a 2 gig card, not to mention replacement batteries for each 1 hour session, it just wasn't my preferred route. So I felt hiding the cam was my better route. Neither of which were successful of course. I'd like to have the 3K, but not a priority through Winter. I would wear one of the smaller high res bullet cams and a dvr that has longer recording time, but no extra cash for those toys right now.

No question I would enjoy having some video, but its also OK that I don't.