Losing The Faith....

[Guest River]

snip

#3)More funding...According to the program this particular project lost funding, but the individuals involved continued working on their own...I don't know if that means they lost State or Federal funding but kept university funding or not....but the point is, wolverines are not "sexy" and funding is hard to find and keep...I'm unaware of any funding for BF--but I think you probably need to have an animal that's proven to exist before you get funding to study it..

/snip

Meldrum has received over 200 grand in grants to study bigfoot.

[Guest]

And thanks----I DID learn cool stuff about wolverines...not the least of which is their scientific name is Gulo gulo (literally "glutton glutton")....HA!

I love names like that, and that is one of the reasons I've always held a soft spot for wolverines. Never seen a live one . . . yet.

[Guest shelley7950]

That's interesting...I didn't know there was funding available to study BF...was this through a university do you know? Or privately raised?

PragmaticTheorist---thanks for the long thoughtful reply...what is the "giant ape" paradigm evolving into? Or away from?

[Guest River]

That's interesting...I didn't know there was funding available to study BF...was this through a university do you know? Or privately raised?

PragmaticTheorist---thanks for the long thoughtful reply...what is the "giant ape" paradigm evolving into? Or away from?

shelley7950: The sources of the grants are listed on that link. Those were quoted from a univeristy website (the one he works at) that publishes such grants.

[Guest Cervelo]

Great program and had the same thoughts......

[Huntster]

masterbarber, on 17 November 2010 - 11:25 AM, said:

Well heck, maybe we can get Sask and Meldrum together to go on a hunt.

If it's a funded hunt - don't leave out River and Huntster.

He sent me a text, he's only coming out for Sask and Meldrum

I don't blame him for not trusting me. I'd have my rifle.

I'd love to see Saskeptic get an opportunity for some quality field time with Meldrum, but would want them to be in quality habitat after fresh sign had been found or after recent, high-quality reports.

[Huntster]

Huntster, I would have to take issue with a couple of your points..

#2) There are fewer BF researchers...It would depend on how you define "researcher"...if you define it as "people out in the habitat specifically looking for a particular species" then I would have to disagree--there are way more people looking for BF than looking for wolverines...on the other hand, if you define it as "accredited biologists with university connections" then you're correct, there are fewer researchers looking for BF...

I'm afraid that there are both fewer people out in the woods looking for bigfoot than there are people out in the woods looking for wolverines, and there are fewer scientists (biologists) looking for and studying sasquatches than there are scientists (biolgists) looking for and studying sasquatches.

I just finished talking to a trapper just a few moments ago who told me of a common "friend" (actually, I don't like the guy) who caught a wolverine under his marten set. He specifically set a #4 leghold under the tree that contained his marten set after losing some marten to wolverines. More, I know lots of trappers who "are people out in the woods looking for wolverines", as wolverine pelts are quite valuable, priced at or sometimes even above wolf and otter pelts. The best wolverine set I've seen is a 330 conibear set inside a hole cut in a 55 gallon drum with a beaver carcass inside. A wolf will never stick his head in that drum, but a wolverine will.............

#3)More funding...According to the program this particular project lost funding, but the individuals involved continued working on their own...

Funding for sasquatch hunts or studies have been much less than even what the state of Alaska has funded on wolverine studies alone. We have seen increased interest in wolverine populations in the PNW and northern Rocky states recently, and I suspect all such states have funded wolverine census attempts. More, I am quite confident the National Park Service has done so regularly in Yellowstone, with a review at least every 5 years (states are even required by the feds to conduct management reviews every 5 years in order to qualify for continued federal funding for each species).

Sasquatch? Nope. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing. (Except rare private funding).

I don't know if that means they lost State or Federal funding but kept university funding or not....

Where do you think that university funding comes from?

but the point is, wolverines are not "sexy" and funding is hard to find and keep...

Under ESA, wolverine funding is mandated in several states.

I'm unaware of any funding for BF--but I think you probably need to have an animal that's proven to exist before you get funding to study it.

Why? And if so, why did the U.S. government fund searches for extraterrestrial intelligence? Was there any proof of little green men before millions of dollars was spent by the Air Force and NASA on UFO research and extraterrestrial intelligence?

Edited November 17, 2010 by Huntster

[Huntster]

That's interesting...I didn't know there was funding available to study BF...was this through a university do you know? Or privately raised?

It was a private grant from a family trust.

[Guest]

PragmaticTheorist---thanks for the long thoughtful reply...what is the "giant ape" paradigm evolving into? Or away from?

I think its safe to say that the 'majority' of those who have had repeat encounters no longer see them as just some giant species of ape. (There are exceptions of course, and yes I have chatted with Timberghost many times in the past, and he may never change his opinion. Of course he only viewed them as a threat too. I raised that because someone may inevitably raise his encounters.) But there are a multitude of witnesses who won't post on the forums anymore because what they have learned is scoffed at by the rest who have never even had an encounter. There are some very intelligent individuals who have grasped the insight that sasquatch are much more then apes and really don't want to waste time on forums trying to convince the multitudes who may never grasp it. There are some who find it easier to have encounters too, and a few do post here, and they may be the ones who will slowly guide our understanding of these beings as a whole. More then likely though it is the ones who are working behind closed doors who don't care what others think, who will make history. Who knows, maybe it will be Enoch? Maybe Adrian Erickson? Maybe someone else?

The paradigm didn't begin with Krantz's theory of them being Giganto either, he was merely the first academic to put a label on them in this new era where the internet carried it along and it became a catch phrase. The old 'original' paradigm that the native people had of what they were has been wiped away by modern society however. That doesn't mean modern society is smarter or right either. The original inhabitants knew more of the 'truth' of what they are, in one-on-one terms, we just need to find our way back to understanding that, but we may never achieve that either. The same way we've lost our connection with the earth, and some will never understand that either. You really have to spend extensive time in the wilds of nature, without modern trappings like loud music or vehicles, to truly understand that too. We're so separated from whom we once were. We no longer respect nature, we trash it, use it for our commercial gain, and thus we've lost our soul's connection to it . Yeah that may sound like the ramblings of a Native American but I've experienced enough to know the truth is in that direction. Now let me get back to the television. lol

No, I guess I'm trying to say that those who want to really have some kind of encounter, then leave all the video cameras and recording devices at home and just enjoy the woods alone. However they can sense it, they do, even if its our body language of sneaking around. They know when we are up to something. We show it. No you may still not have an encounter, I sure wish I could at will, but they don't happen when we want. Anyway, the more encounters one has, the more appreciation one also has for their intelligence and distrust of us. We can't be trusted. Many of us want to kill one or harm them based on our reasons to do so. I don't think they agree with us that its 'the best thing' to harvest one. They continue to outsmart us, does that make them just some ape? Where the paradigm of what they are will go, heck, I don't know? They could be alien for all I know. We could be too for that matter. lol While this may get some flack, there does appear to be some paranormal aspect to them, tho I don't quite grasp it yet either, but I've had a few things happen that defies physical scientific explanation. So I keep in mind that the majority of the worlds physicists adopt the scientific theory that there are other dimensions in our universe. I also know that both government and universities have extensively funded research in parapsychology, because they recognized there is 'something' at work that deserves research and understanding. So these seemingly far fetched concepts should no longer be discounted out of hand like they have been. Science accepts these theories and are trying to prove them, so we shouldn't be so quick to discount them without some mature discussion at least. How that fits into the paradigm? I don't know. We don't quite have those answers yet but we need not be so arrogant as to just deny the existence of what we don't understand without making an attempt to understand first, right? They are simply more intelligent then many give them credit for being, and we don't know how to communicate with one another peacefully. Maybe someday that will happen? Until then, maybe we should find ways at showing them they don't need to fear us?

[Guest Lesmore]

And thanks----I DID learn cool stuff about wolverines...not the least of which is their scientific name is Gulo gulo (literally "glutton glutton")....HA!

Here's some more info about the Wolverine for you. In some parts of Canada the Wolverine is known as the Carcajou.

It's a French word for Wolverine and generally used by French-Canadians.

Les

Edited November 17, 2010 by Lesmore

[xspider1]

...So I keep in mind that the majority of the worlds physicists adopt the scientific theory that there are other dimensions in our universe...

This is absolutely right and may have already been proven to Science. I've been meaning to look into it further after the most 'scientific' person that I personally know indicated to me that there are something like 6-8 dimensions believed to exist. I think it's wrong and, in fact, dangerous for anyone to think that, although We don't know what Bigfoot (and many, many other things) are, we know exactly what there are not...

[Guest LittleFeat]

1) There are even fewer sasquatches than there are wolverines

2) There are fewer sasquatch researchers than there are wolverine researchers

3) Wolverine researchers are better funded than sasquatch researchers

4) Very few of the few sasquatch researchers ever even spend much time in the field, and even fewer spend "20 years of study", and fewer yet in prime habitat

5) More is confirmed regarding wolverine habitat, so the researchers are actually searching in the best habitat

6) Wolverine habitat is easier to conduct research in than sasquatch habitat

Huntster - And for that you get a point. Exactly what I was thinking!

Shelley - It's okay to have doubts and disbelief regarding these creatures. It's all part of the reasoning process that I'm sure almost everyone on this site has gone through at least once. Then, something interesting happens and you're right back into it! It's the skepticism that is required to study this mystery.

[Guest LittleFeat]

Conventional:

Wisdom:

Actually, I think bigfoot defies the conventional convenience of the elite among science who consider themselves as wise, because the wise thing to do would actually be to look into the matter, not ignore it.

Good point. Riddle me this...wouldn't a university that obtains proof of bigfoots' existence stand to make a ton of money and gain the school international acclaim? I have to believe that there would be a university that would be willing to take the challenge. Sure it probably wouldn't be one of the hallowed New England universities with a reputation that it doesn't want to tarnish, but there has to be one progressive university or college out there that would want "in on it".

It would be all about securing a grant, but there has to be some wealthy investors that could throw some money their way to fund a major scientific study. Meldrum, Green, Morgan, etc could be brought in as needed as subject matter experts. I'll bet that you could change some scientists' minds if their participation is supported by the university brass. I don't even like how this sounds, but money talks!

A big bone of contention would be which approach to use, but if a very passive approach is used initially, the researchers wouldn't chance jeopardizing the whole study with a more aggressive approach. The approach could be ramped up incrementally as more trust is gained and/or different approaches are tried.

I know this might not be a popular idea, especially for the conspiracy theorists, but what about if the state or federal government were to temporarily close a wilderness area that has a history of sightings so that a controlled study could be conducted without interference from outsiders?

Or maybe I'm just too optimistic or naive.

[BobbyO]

Well, first of all let me say that I desperately want to believe in Bigfoot, and of all the cryptids I think BF is the most likely to turn out to be a real animal...

But...the more I lurk on various forums and watch various reality TV shows, the more I find my belief wavering. Last night, for example, I watched a PBS show on wolverines, called "Woverines: Chasing Phantoms"...it was fascinating and showed how a tiny group of dedicated researchers were able to track this relatively small (30-40#) carnivore through some of the most remote and challenging wilderness in the world...these animals are spread thin in the landscape (with territories of 500 miles or more) and are constantly on the move, travelling miles every day. One researcher admitted that in 20 years of study she'd actually only seen living wolverines 4 times...And yet, there was still plenty of evidence to base studies on---there were footprints, scat and hair samples for DNA, kill/scavenge sites, game cam photos, den sites, etc. etc.

So why is it that a tiny group of researchers are able to find plenty of evidence for such a small, scarce, and elusive animal in thousands of miles of remote and difficult terrain, and yet no one seems to be able to come up with a shred of solid physical evidence (DNA, confirmed hair or scat sample, clear photo)of a huge North American ape that, according to reports, is spread across most of the lower 48 States and is allegedly frequently seen strolling through people's back yards and along the roadside??? Anyone? Seriously, I'm getting depressed...

And thanks for any response...enjoy this site.

Shelley, did the Programme give you any idea as to how much $$ was allocated to the Research allowing the Researchers to, i guess, do it Full Time & not have to worry about how they would would be able to put Food on the Table for their Families during Research time, because they got paid to do it ??

** I can't seem to find exact numbers, but i did find this **

==========

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

Research was funded by the Lolo Pass Redevelopment Project

Region 1—United States Forest Service

Idaho Transportation Department

Montana Department of Transportation

Western Federal Lands Division of the Federal Highway Administration

United States Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station.

We thank the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest and Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks for their cooperation and logistical

support.

We thank D. Chapman and B. Walton of Montana Aircraft in Belgrade, Montana for safely conducting aerial telemetry flights.

We thank D. Davis and W. Melquist for support of the wolverine field work conducted on the Clearwater National Forest.

This study would not have been possible without the many excellent field technicians, including M. Anderman, C. Booke, B. Brost, G. Campbell, S. Derusseau, G. Desy, M. Dragoo, R. Eisfeldt, B. Jimenez, R. Killackey, P. Kolar, B. Kronland, M. Maassen, J.Roberts, N. Stone, R. Williams, R. Yates, and F. Zikesch.

We thank K. Pilgrim and C. Engkjer from the United States Forest Service, Rocky Mountain Research Station’s genetics laboratory in the Wildlife Ecology Unit located in Missoula, Montana, for extracting DNA from genetic samples. We thank K. McKelvey, Rocky Mountain

Research Station, for providing his computer program Lamda, J. Citta for his assistance with Program MARK,

and W. Kasworm for his help in locating dispersing animals.

===========

So all in all, i guess that looks to be a VERY well funded Project, unlike anything ever obtained for a Project regarding our Subject, sadly.

[Huntster]

Riddle me this...wouldn't a university that obtains proof of bigfoots' existence stand to make a ton of money and gain the school international acclaim?

I don't think "make a ton of money" would be an accurate statement. "Gain a ton of grant money"? Yeah, they probably would.

But I don't think it's the university itself, per se. I suspect it would be the people, team, or department that successfully obtained the proof to begin with. Would the university itself gain from that fiscally or in terms of fame? Yeah, especially in the head start such a discovery would likely gain them in grant money.

I have to believe that there would be a university that would be willing to take the challenge.

I'm afraid that there's no evidence whatsoever that there is. Even Idaho State, where Meldrum is resident, doesn't appear to be especially aggressive in sasquatch research.

Another point that I've made in the past that is widely derided by skeptics, ignored by many others, or not fully considered by most:

Most of the giant leaps in discovery has not been led by universities or their staff. Indeed, they are classic for being way late to the party, or even being dragged kicking and screaming into the fray. In many cases in American history, it has been the United States military who have led the way: western expansion (including much of the wildlife and botanical discovery) by the Lewis & Clark Expedition, numerous Arctic Expeditions (finalized by the disasterous Greely expedition to Cape Sabine), the Alaska Interior expeditions (especially the Allen expedition), and the Race to the Moon. While every single one of those expeditions (with the exception of the Space Race), private individuals preceeded the military expeditions, but they were not avenues of discovery. They were commercial enterprises, and more prone to secrecy and profit than discovery and publication of information.

It would be all about securing a grant, but there has to be some wealthy investors that could throw some money their way to fund a major scientific study.

There was Tom Slick in the 1950's, before the modern media got involved. But in todays media atmosphere, I doubt you'll see anybody like that in the near future, at least. With today's media, no good deed goes unpunished:

Oh, I missed one phase. There was a phase there when any scientist who showed an interest was news. We've now reached the extreme where some of the world's very top people in the relevant fields are very interested and are saying publicly that there should be proper investigation and this is not news. The only thing that's news is that the whole thing has proved to be a fake. The demonstration of that is very clear when this absolute nonsense story about Ray Wallace faking all the foot prints went all around the world in exactly the same time period the Denver Post ran a major article and sidebars on these key scientists who were saying it should be investigated, the Associated Press wouldn't even carry the story. It never went anywhere beyond Denver. To me as a newspaper man, this is absolutely shocking. I tried to contact some of those at Columbia University's long-established graduate school of journalism who keep a tab on the press and the response was, "Nobody here is interested in taking this up." In other words, for 40 years we've been butting our heads against a barrier manned by the scientists saying there can't be any such thing. Now they're stepping away from the ramparts and the media is stepping up to take their place. Absolutely fascinating. The media is seeing to it that this heresy does not get to the public.

I know this might not be a popular idea, especially for the conspiracy theorists, but what about if the state or federal government were to temporarily close a wilderness area that has a history of sightings so that a controlled study could be conducted without interference from outsiders?

I think this may very well be one of the reasons why government might not want to find a bigfoot: as a government official myself, the last thing I wanted was a bone of contention which somebody would use for their ideological gain, and that's exactly what would occur if a sasquatch is "discovered". Some will want to use the discovery to create more restrictions on the public on public lands, and much of the public would not be happy about that. In other words, let sleeping dogs lay..........