Operation Persistence

[BobbyO]

Bigfoot is real, it is not a creature however.

I am dedicated to finding out what it is.

There was one a man that said.... " It's one thing being obsessed by something, it's another thing entirely and bordering on lunacy to spend big portions of time obsessing over trying to disprove that same something to people who have seen that something, on a Website deidcated to that something "..

Bipto, mayhaps you should attempt to knife the animals, rather than shoot them.

Incorr, what do you mean, stab them ?

Sorry if you didn't mean that and I missed an earlier post.

[Drew]

There was one a man that said.... " It's one thing being obsessed by something, it's another thing entirely and bordering on lunacy to spend big portions of time obsessing over trying to disprove that same something to people who have seen that something, on a Website deidcated to that something "..

I am not trying to 'Disprove' anything.

You can only Disprove something that has been proven.

I am trying, however, to show that there is not enough evidence to support a claim that Bigfoot/Woodape exists.

[Drew]

i would think skeptics would be much more forgiving with a group that is commited to ending the mystery as oppose to perpetuating it.

Right, however you are not reading what I'm reading, regarding the TBRC Area X thing.

You say they are "committed to ending the mystery as oppose to perpetuating it.", however, they are not doing anything different.

They are claiming to see Apes, the do not have any evidence of those apes. This is exactly what has been going on for years in Bigfootry. For some reason, you apply some 'sciencey' label to their activities.

Bipto says they are either lying or the Apes are real. He is not leaving any room for someone to question their results. He is basically saying "If you don't think these Apes are real, then you have to go out and call me a liar.". Does that seem like a fair position to put me in, when he has not provided any supporting evidence? All he has provided is exactly the same as every Bigfoot researcher over the last 30 years. He puts it on a cool podcast, and I will say, it is the best Bigfoot podcast, with the best technical support, I have ever heard. But that doesn't make the Apes real.

[BobbyO]

There was one a man that said.... " It's one thing being obsessed by something, it's another thing entirely and bordering on lunacy to spend big portions of time obsessing over trying to disprove that same something to people who have seen that something, on a Website deidcated to that something "..

I am not trying to 'Disprove' anything.

You can only Disprove something that has been proven.

I am trying, however, to show that there is not enough evidence to support a claim that Bigfoot/Woodape exists.

And I completely agree with you, there isn't enough evidence currently, publicly at least, to support claims that these things exist.

But they do exist, I've seen one and I can assure you, even though you won't believe me, that you are wasting your time with your current angle on these things.

That's all I can say about this subject.

[WSA]

Only in this field of inquiry are eyewitness accounts summarily rejected out of hand. I feel sure no so-called skeptic adopts that posture in any other aspect of their life. Or if they do, I'm wondering how that works for them, exactly. A truly extraordinary way to conduct your affairs, but there it is. Viva la differance!

[Drew]

No. They are not rejected out of hand. They are rejected because their is no evidence supporting the claims.

They are not claiming a small mouse, which inhabits swamps in a small corner of Michigan's central plateau exists. They are claiming that a Giant Hairy Beast, 6' to 11' tall, weighing 200-800 pounds, is cavorting throughout a range which exceeds almost every other mammal in North America. And while they claim it is elusive, it is allegedly seen by thousands of people a year. In fact, some claim it reclines in the middle of roadways. An animal that size, and with that range, does not remain unverified in The United States.

They are not rejected out of hand, and I adopt this posture for other things: Dragons, T-rex, Nessie, Unicorns, Mothmen. And up until last year, I would never have accepted a story that a Wolverine was in California. Then they went and got poo, hair, and photos of the thing. And now, I agree there are Wolverines in California.

[Cotter]

And Drew - you were wrong about the CA Wolverine. You could be wrong about BF.

It also appears that you are assigning an intelligence to this creature equivalent to that of a bear, deer, or the like. Am I correct in that assumption?

[BobbyO]

I totally see where Drew is coming from, if i hadn't seen one i would have the exact same stance, possibly x 10.

& i can't answer as to why x hasn't been found or why y hasn't been presented.

But in defence, i've never seen there being " allegedly thousands of sightings per year ".

& this Animal does remain unverified in North America, and has done.

Thumbs up to the animal, thumbs down to the people.

[Drew]

And Drew - you were wrong about the CA Wolverine. You could be wrong about BF.

Yes I could.

It also appears that you are assigning an intelligence to this creature equivalent to that of a bear, deer, or the like. Am I correct in that assumption?

Yes. I believe intelligence is being applied to the creature, in order to rationalize why it can't be found.

[WSA]

Yes Drew, thanks for the confirmation of my point.

[Guest]

I am trying, however, to show that there is not enough evidence to support a claim that Bigfoot/Woodape exists.

There is no *proof* wood apes exist, but there is a lot of strong circumstantial evidence. Proof is the whole point of the NAWAC's current mission.

However, I have more than enough personal experience to be able to "claim" they exist. More than you have to say they don't.

[Drew]

Yes Drew, thanks for the confirmation of my point.

Reread.

Here are your points;

Only in this field of inquiry are eyewitness accounts summarily rejected out of hand. Not Confirmed

I feel sure no so-called skeptic adopts that posture in any other aspect of their life. Not Confirmed

Or if they do, I'm wondering how that works for them, exactly. Eplained

A truly extraordinary way to conduct your affairs, but there it is. Viva la differance! Completely ordinary.

Yes Drew, thanks for the confirmation of my point.

Which point are you referring to?

I am trying, however, to show that there is not enough evidence to support a claim that Bigfoot/Woodape exists.

There is no *proof* wood apes exist, but there is a lot of strong circumstantial evidence. Proof is the whole point of the NAWAC's current mission.

However, I have more than enough personal experience to be able to "claim" they exist. More than you have to say they don't.

Bipto, I would be more than stoked, to admit I was wrong if you provide the evidence.

But, you, being a skeptic, have to admit, that I don't need personal experience to 'say they don't' exist.

I do, however, need strong evidence to support a claim that they do exist.

[norseman]

i would think skeptics would be much more forgiving with a group that is commited to ending the mystery as oppose to perpetuating it.

Right, however you are not reading what I'm reading, regarding the TBRC Area X thing.

You say they are "committed to ending the mystery as oppose to perpetuating it.", however, they are not doing anything different.

They are claiming to see Apes, the do not have any evidence of those apes. This is exactly what has been going on for years in Bigfootry. For some reason, you apply some 'sciencey' label to their activities.

Bipto says they are either lying or the Apes are real. He is not leaving any room for someone to question their results. He is basically saying "If you don't think these Apes are real, then you have to go out and call me a liar.". Does that seem like a fair position to put me in, when he has not provided any supporting evidence? All he has provided is exactly the same as every Bigfoot researcher over the last 30 years. He puts it on a cool podcast, and I will say, it is the best Bigfoot podcast, with the best technical support, I have ever heard. But that doesn't make the Apes real.

He is not a liar drew, ask yourself this, would you devote as much time to sasquatch as bipto has? It is not logical to assume that bipto is doing all of this to support a lie.....unless there was some payoff involved. he has seen something you believe not to exist based on the evidence at hand. fair enough, but bipto doesnt hide behind moral aloofness. that is to say science is barbaric because it requires a type specimen. even though most every other group looking for the thing look down their noses at science. and some groups even charge people money to go into the field with them! bipto and his group are prepared to harvest one and submit it to science. big difference.

drew, im not asking you to believe bipto, im not asking you to stop asking for evidence. all im asking you to do is see the distinction between a group that will never give science what it asks for. versus a group that is striving to do just that....

[Guest DWA]

_{When evidence suggests something is real…that’s the status of the evidence, until it is determined for certain what the evidence represents.}

_{When a scientist makes a claim; walks you through it; the science is sound; and the position is unchallenged…well, the question is open.}

_{“No proof†is not a challenge.}

_{But I gotta say that Drew's stance on this pretty much exemplifies everything head-scratching about bigfoot skeptics.}

_{When the animal is confirmed, which the evidence says it will be....OK, help me with this. You were right before, and wrong now...?}

_{Oh. OK. Unfortunately, existence doesn't work that way. I have more evidence for sasquatch in front of me than I have for Drew, for sure. And the evidence says that sasquatch is as real as Drew, well, might be.}

Edited March 26, 2013 by DWA

[WSA]

What I was referring to Drew is this statement you made:

"They are rejected because there is no evidence supporting the claims."

Every read the account of W.T. Sherman's first day at Shiloh? You really should.