Operation Persistence

[Guest]

That begins to become plausible, and can be tested by asking Bipto if they have a log of all member positions at all times and see if everyone is accounted for during these sightings or events.

There are limited number of people allowed in the area. They are all investigators in the TBRC meaning they have had to establish their reliability prior to participating in X. They are known quantities. To the best of my knowledge and recollection, new investigators are not present without more seasoned people being there as well.

In addition, the teams are relatively small (3-5 people, typically). For purposes of safety, we either always know where others are or know how to identify them. When apart, we know where others are supposed to be and what their activities will be. Radio coms are carried by all.

WRT any correlations to sightings/encounters and the presence of particular team members, the only correlation I'm aware of is based on time on location. Those who are there more often have more experiences (logically). All sightings are not concentrated in one or two members. In fact, when polled, all members who were in X during Persistence reported activity such as rock throwing. It happens pretty much all the time.

The idea that it's an "inside job" is preposterous to those on the inside.

Skepticism is a good thing.

Agreed! I'm a skeptic myself. Obtuse and irrational assertions are not skepticism, IMO.

[Guest VioletX]

Bipto,

Would you be willing to invite Derek out to witness for himself?

I know your statement above about using reliable, established investigators goes against this idea, but maybe in the future? ;D

[Guest]

I was.

I think every time we go in there, we have a chance to collect the specimen. Every time. It could literally happen at any moment, but there are lots of things can go wrong in these kinds of situations. You need a clear shot, you need the time to take that shot, you need to have the right guy getting the chance. Eventually, it's all going to click and happen. It's just a matter of time, IMO.

We're not going anywhere. Absent some external event beyond our control that changes the situation, we'll ge there as long as it takes.

My personal opinion (and the opinion of many others both in and out of the TBRC) is that a voucher specimen is the only way to prove the animal. We are collecting other types of evidence (see the hair sample article on our site, for example), but nothing short of a specimen is going to do the trick. As you say, when that happens is anyone's guess and depends on many things happening in just the right way.

Thanks for the speedy response! Unfortunately, I agree with you about the voucher specimen being the only thing out there that can definitively prove its existence, but I still have a little bit of faith that a group like yourselves can pull it off without shooting one dead. Which leads me to my next question..

Perhaps 20% of what's happened has been discussed publicly.

Like you said, most in your group feel a dead squatch is the likely the only way we're ever going to prove it's existence, so why hold back anything at this point? Im not doubting you at all, Im just curious what else you guys could possibly have that you arent willing to discuss?

Obviously your not going to spill the beans just because I asked, but Im puzzeled as to what you mean by this? You would think that somewhere in that 80% of events not discussed there are some pretty cool, interesting facts that would certainly help to prove its existence. I would say you've been very, very transparent thus far, but that statement really muddies the water for me.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Samsquanch85

[Drew]

Agreed! I'm a skeptic myself. Obtuse and irrational assertions are not skepticism, IMO.

Is it obtuse and irrational given the fact that we only have 20% of the info to ponder? Really? It's irrational to say it is likely a hoax, considering the alternative is that a species of WOOD APES is living in the mountains of Oklahoma? While you are a good sport about talking about this, you are clearly not a skeptic, considering that you don't have any evidence that these are an Unclassified species of higher primate, prone to picking on humans.

[Guest poignant]

Drew. You said it yourself. You don't have all the info, neither do I. So pipe down and wish them well. It's the least you could do.

[Guest]

Obviously your not going to spill the beans just because I asked, but Im puzzeled as to what you mean by this? You would think that somewhere in that 80% of events not discussed there are some pretty cool, interesting facts that would certainly help to prove its existence. I would say you've been very, very transparent thus far, but that statement really muddies the water for me.

I'm not the sole arbiter of what we release. There were teams present for three months, all of whom kept journals, so there's a lot of experiential data. Some of it we keep confidential so as not to compromise the location or other details about it would be against our interests to divulge. Some of it just hasn't been formatted into a presentable form. I'm not being coy or secretive. As you point out, we're being very transparant. However, there are people on the web actively trying to destroy the location's research potential. We'd be stupid if that didn't give us pause with regard to the release of information.

All I was really trying to say is it's a logically fallacy to think all events of note have been discussed publicly at this point. Drewbot in particular seems to think (at least as far as I can tell) that there's only been a single shooting incident. That's not true. However, none of them have proven to be productive.

While you are a good sport about talking about this, you are clearly not a skeptic, considering that you don't have any evidence that these are an Unclassified species of higher primate, prone to picking on humans.

I am quite skeptical, even of evidence collected in X, but you either seem to forget or choose not to acknowledge that I have seen them. I have heard them. I have had rocks thrown at me by them. I have found their footprints. Others who I have known for years and trust with my life (quite literally) have also seen them and experienced all I have and more. I don't need a DNA evidence kit to prove to myself they're there. They are.

Is it obtuse and irrational given the fact that we only have 20% of the info to ponder? Really?

You have made unequivocal claims that we are being hoaxed with only 20% of the information. All you know is what you read on the web or hear on one of my podcasts (but honestly, your grasp of the assertions we've made is such that I'm not certain you've even done that). Are your claims obtuse and irrational? You tell me.

[Drew]

All I was really trying to say is it's a logically fallacy to think all events of note have been discussed publicly at this point. Drewbot in particular seems to think (at least as far as I can tell) that there's only been a single shooting incident. That's not true. However, none of them have proven to be productive.

It is not, however, a logical fallacy to maintain that it is far more likely that you are being hoaxed, than that you are in the presence of an unknown species of Wood-Apes in Oklahoma, that habitually mess with humans.

I know that there have been multiple incidents of gunfire, I do not know who shot the rounds, if it was the same person, if it was two people, if the witnesses saw the target, what the range to the target was, what the weapon and load consisted of, or if there was any blood found. Somewhere I read that something like blood was found after the shotgun/first date incident, but that there have been no results obtained from the substance.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Drew

[Guest]

No, you don't know any of that, yet still think we're being jacked with by hillbillies. Odd.

Edited September 25, 2012 by bipto

[Drew]

No, you don't know any of that, yet still think we're being jacked with by hillbillies. Odd.

Yes, that is one of the reasons I think you're being jacked with, and/or have an accomplice within your group. Specifically the part where the guy who fired the shotgun was up ahead around the bend and fired off 10 rounds before anyone could get up there to see what he was shooting at. Not that I could blame you, I'd have dove into the dirt as soon as one of those rounds lit off.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Drew

[yowiie]

Bipto,

Just a few questions.

1. How long has this study being going on

2. How many shots have been fired at the wood apes

3.If there were numerous shots being fired, wouldn't it be your conclusion that what ever was being shot at would leave the area,

4. If the study has being going on for an extended period of time and there were so many sightings, by the members contributing to the study, should there not be photographic evidence to support these sightings

[See-Te-Cah NC]

Enough!

This thread has progressed in a direction that is not productive to the discussion of the topic.

If you don't believe the claims of the Bigfoot investigators, that's fine. However, the next individual that openly implies that this is a hoax without producing the information to prove it will be penalized. Both proponents and skeptics are welcome to participate, but this crass trash talking from both sides stops now.

Everyone is considered warned. The next action will result in penalties.

[Guest]

There are limited number of people allowed in the area.

perhaps by you and the TBRC, but what about the land owner, his relatives and friends? You've had at least one incident of uninvited guests showing up. I'm kinda with Drew on this one. It's hard to believe that with this much supposed activity, and all the shooting that nothing of real value has come forth. I think you had some activity, wether from human or squatch, but its been hyped up and exaggerated. With all this shooting going on, you guys are really bad shots if you have knocked one down yet.

[Guest Flatlander]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a bigfoot costume and have tried to hoax friends and family in it. A few things I can tell you from my hoaxing experience:

The suit is terribly hot, unbearably so in the summer

The suit is cumberson and difficlult to manuever in

It is impossible to move quickly in the suit

I am not capable of normal walking in the suit and can not run at all

If seen up close, the suit is an obvious fake

It cost around $75

If I were hoaxing someone and they tried to shoot me, I would let them know I was human very quickly

My point in all this is to say that if the TBRC is getting hoaxed, the cost of hoaxing would be pretty expensive. In order to make a suit that someone could wear in the mountains of Oklahoma in the summer and manuever in the woods like a creature that lives there, well I just don't imagine a suit could be made to do that. I don't imaging Hollywood could even make a suit like that with a big movie budget. Even if the suit was possible, once the shooting commenced, the suit would come off pretty quick.

Just my take.

[Guest]

It's one thing to be skeptical, but man, Saskeptic you guys are not. About as far as you can go is that the TBRC is lying. And here is the reason why. Four, count em, four people saw these creatures running up a hill at the exact same time, doing something that is not within human abilities. So regardless if you think all of the other rock throwing, and "get back" gibberish is being done by "the hills have eyes" hillbillies, MULTIPLE PEOPLE SAW THESE ANIMALS RUNNING IN A WAY HUMANS CAN'T. That's it.

[Guest]

I agree with that post completely and it's a big reason why I say an outside hoaxing group is out of the question.

perhaps by you and the TBRC, but what about the land owner, his relatives and friends?

The land owners are present from time to time. So far, none have shown up in a monkey suit.

It's hard to believe that with this much supposed activity, and all the shooting that nothing of real value has come forth.

It is, isn't it? However, it's the truth.

I think you had some activity, wether from human or squatch, but its been hyped up and exaggerated.

Actually, the opposite is true.

With all this shooting going on, you guys are really bad shots if you have knocked one down yet.

I appreciate your expert opinion on the matter.

1. How long has this study being going on

We've been in the area for more than ten years, but the long term presence studies were last summer and this summer.

2. How many shots have been fired at the wood apes

Several. Perhaps a half dozen. I don't have the notes in front of me.

3.If there were numerous shots being fired, wouldn't it be your conclusion that what ever was being shot at would leave the area,

Perhaps, but they don't. If anything, the activity has increased. It's yet another way they act like animals and not people. A person would presumably leave. An animal might not know any better. In either event, they haven't gone anywhere.

4. If the study has being going on for an extended period of time and there were so many sightings, by the members contributing to the study, should there not be photographic evidence to support these sightings

Not unless it's been captured by one of our unattended cameras. They don't come out and pose for us. I've discussed the camera and head-mounted GoPro thing a lot already earlier in the thread.