Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 They see better, hear better and move better. They are not counting. They are having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) Don't disagree. When in the midst of it, it's quite easy for me to think of them as precocious teenagers jacking with us. The instances of potentially threatening behavior are quite low compared to the inquisitive, almost playful stuff. Personally, I think they're like other primates (including us) in that some members of the troupe stay back and are cautious while others are more willing to engage. They each have a different perspective based on their place in the pecking order and perhaps their age. This is just me talking. Not everyone in the group feels the same way, but it's what I think based on my experience. Bottom line, there is no one way they'll react. Each will act differently based on their individual characteristics. With regard to hearing better, perhaps they do hear better than us. I know they're much better attuned to their environment than we are. With regard to counting, no, they're not. I don't think they can. They don't seem very good at it. Edited December 5, 2012 by bipto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) At the very least, they would be highly tuned in to their environment, and like other animals, easily alerted by foreign sounds. there is a harmony and rhythm to the forest. When i'm hunting everyday, I become very aware of the rhythm and can easily determine the different sounds and easily detect when the rhythm is broken.after a while it's like i can feel what is going on around me,it's hard to explain, I would get this overwhelming urge to look at a certain area and then,in short amount of time, animal would emerge from that area. As to the counting, I guess you're area isn't privy to rocket scientist squatches'. Edited December 5, 2012 by zigoapex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do you think it may be a case of 'One, two, many'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest poignant Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Penski: Interesting post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 That article deals with linguistics and culture, two things I don't believe wood apes have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TexasTracker Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Penski... very interesting stuff. bipto, do you believe gorillas or chimps have a "culture"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cervelo Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I would lay a bet I have driven those roads more than anyone else here. I may have walked more of Shenandoah National Park than any living person. All the trails, most three times or more, only begins to touch it. Toss a dart at a map of SNP. It will hit a spot I have been. Wanna bet? My assessment is my assessment. Yours comes from...? Seen this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWA Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Been there but never seen that. Which means 'somebody' put it there...and I'd wonder who... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cervelo Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Huh...Will not derail this thread anymore but thanks for the response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWA Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Penski... very interesting stuff. bipto, do you believe gorillas or chimps have a "culture"? Well, actually there is a growing consensus that animals - not just chimps and gorillas, but others including birds - do have culture, i.e., a set of learned behaviors, passed down from one generation to the next. I'd recommend this book by Frans de Waal: http://www.amazon.com/Ape-Sushi-Master-Reflections-Primatologist/dp/0465041760/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354805153&sr=1-12&keywords=frans+de+waal#_ The complexity of our culture sets us apart (and is one of the very few things we still think do). But I always thought "instinct" was scientists glossing over something they didn't want to admit. So, yeah, apes have culture. But it's kind of hard to compare it to ours because of all the things we can manipulate and all the devices we can use to pass our learning along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) On Radio Lab, I just heard a story where they describe how whooping cranes have to teach their young how to drink because otherwise they can't figure it out and die. That's part of a set of "learned behaviors" but it's not culture. At least not based on this difinition: "[T]he term 'culture' in American anthropology had two meanings: (1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and (2) the distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively. Distinctions are currently made between the physical artifacts created by a society, its so-called material culture and everything else, the intangibles such as language, customs, etc., that are the main referent of the term 'culture'." I'm not saying wood apes don't teach their young basic skills involving hunting or shelter making or what have you. They probably do. But there's no creativity involved. There's no signs of symbology. There's no sasquatch cave paintings or carvings. No evidence of ritual. They do not build fire or appear to have any "technology" of any kind (above, perhaps, very crude tools such that other primates use - sticks and rocks). This is what I mean when I say they're not "human." They act more like gorillas and chimps, not aborigines. They do not do the basic things all people do wherever they are. Edited December 6, 2012 by bipto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DWA Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 On Radio Lab, I just heard a story where they describe how whooping cranes have to teach their young how to drink because otherwise they can't figure it out and die. That's part of a set of "learned behaviors" but it's not culture. At least not based on this difinition: "[T]he term 'culture' in American anthropology had two meanings: (1) the evolved human capacity to classify and represent experiences with symbols, and to act imaginatively and creatively; and (2) the distinct ways that people living in different parts of the world classified and represented their experiences, and acted creatively. Distinctions are currently made between the physical artifacts created by a society, its so-called material culture and everything else, the intangibles such as language, customs, etc., that are the main referent of the term 'culture'." I'm not saying wood apes don't teach their young basic skills involving hunting or shelter making or what have you. They probably do. But there's no creativity involved. There's no signs of symbology. There's no sasquatch cave paintings or carvings. No evidence of ritual. They do not build fire or appear to have any "technology" of any kind (above, perhaps, very crude tools such that other primates use - sticks and rocks). This is what I mean when I say they're not "human." They act more like gorillas and chimps, not aborigines. They do not do the basic things all people do wherever they are. No question. You can't compare animal culture (like all the rookie white-throated sparrows in my neighborhood learning how to sing) with ours. No comparison. It's just that I don't like the way we explain what animals do with "instinct," because I believe much of it - maybe most - is learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 It's just that I don't like the way we explain what animals do with "instinct," because I believe much of it - maybe most - is learned. Totally agree. You should check out the Radio Lab segment. It was great. All about how, as whooping crane populations rebound, people need to teach them all the things they forgot as a species. Awesome stuff. http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2012/dec/03/operation-migration/ My concern with this line of reasoning (and the reason I posted what I did ) is that some people will try to use it to "round up" wood apes (and all animals, I suppose) to semi-human levels of parity with us. There are pretty bright and distinct lines that separate man from animal and we shouldn't forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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