The Bones Debate

[Guest TooRisky]

Most forests are very acidic which takes care of any of the left overs from all the predators, the scavengers, the little critters, and insects... The good Lord made a very efficient system to clean-up the forest while feeding many hungry mouths... Take for instance the Salmon run on any West coast river with bears, BF, birds, scavengers, insects and then the acidic land... you have a week long run, many carcasses are spread all over stinking to high heaven... Then ya come back in a week and it is like nothing ever happened...

It is the same thing with humans/bears/BF/deer/Elk that say died in a forest... Unless one knew exactly where to look and got there fast enough, you wont find anything...

Here is a baby pig in a controlled area less any scavengers except for fly's... It took 4 days for just fly's to get rid of the pig, just fly's...

(This is not bad, but if super squeamish ya might wanna pass)

Dr. Jerry Payne's time lapse movie of the decomposition of a baby pig. For Dr. Payne's account of his work and how he got the dead piglets see

The technique of time-lapse photography is employed to illustrate the rapid removal of carrion (4 days reduced to approximately 6 minutes). The film demonstrates the sequence of tissue destruction and the role of insects in the ultimate dismemberment of the pig carcass and soil movement. The pink and purple beads were added to show the intense activities of the insects in moving the carcass and soil.

Edited February 19, 2011 by TooRisky

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

I think the reason we haven't found Sasquatch bones is because we haven't looked for them. How many times have forests in Western North America been excavated for fossils? Furthermore, if Sasquatches were to live in caves, then their bones would likely be found in caves. Maybe it's just a matter of finding and investigating these caves, instead of disregarding them as bear dens all the time.

Fossil research and recovery is very well documented for the western North America. Besides...are you thus limiting your belief in the existence of Bigfoot to only "Western North America" -? For what reason? The evidence of BF is just as well documented (which is to say is nothing substantial) for eastern NA as western NA.

The glaring lack of any fossils of ANY non-human great ape in north America (or central America or South America) among the many tons of fossils -just from the Pleistocene to Holocene alone- is pretty much an insurmountable obstacle for BF bleevers. Yes, I know the old adage about "Absence of proof is not proof of absence"...but absence of proof is not the reason to be certain of existence, just the opposite in fact.

And I've heard the old "it's very rare for a fossil to be formed thus we shouldn't EXPECT there to be any BF fossils". Yes, every single animal that dies statistically has a slim chance of being fossilized...and yet given the tens if not hundreds of thousands of these creatures that would have had to have existed (over the last 12,000 - 14,000 years since the last Beringia land bridge disappeared to maintain a viable population, the idea that none of them were fossilized is rather far fetched.

Add to that the lack of credible footage from trail cams/deer cams and the like and Bigfoot's absence is even more glaring. No fossils, no incontrovertible film or photos, no hair, no hide, no DNA...yawn...

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

Most forests are very acidic which takes care of any of the left overs from all the predators, the scavengers, the little critters, and insects... The good Lord made a very efficient system to clean-up the forest while feeding many hungry mouths... Take for instance the Salmon run on any West coast river with bears, BF, birds, scavengers, insects and then the acidic land... you have a week long run, many carcasses are spread all over stinking to high heaven... Then ya come back in a week and it is like nothing ever happened...

Or you come back in a million years and Voila!...salmon fossils!

In fact, you don't even have to wait a millions years. Salmon fossils are actually very common in WA state including some very dense deposits of salmon fossils in Pleistocene deposits as described in this excellent SCIENTIFIC article "Spawning sockeye salmon fossils in Pleistocene lake beds of Skokomish Valley, Washington" from 2006/2007 in the excellent SCIENTIFIC publication QUATERNARY RESEARCH:

http://gis.ess.washington.edu/grg/publications/pdfs/fossilsalmon.pdf

From the article:

In August 2000, Jeff Heinis and Summer Burdick discovered fossil salmon along the banks of the Skokomish River in Mason County, Washington, in forested property of the Simpson Resource Company (now the Green Diamond Resource Company) of Shelton, Washington.

(page 228)

Hmmm...the Skokomish River area in Mason County, WA. Why does that locale seem so familiar -? I mean, it's not like it's associated with very much "Bigfoot activity" is it? Oops! Waitaminutehere...

Edited July 11, 2011 by BIGFOOT BBQ

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

Dying in the forest is a pretty good way to never leave bones. Scavengers would crunch up bones, and what was not consumed by animals, would be consumed by soil bacteria and acids leached from fallen leaves. If an animal died in a location where it might create a fossil, then its bones are exactly where fossils need to be; in the ground and out of sight.

And yet we have MILLIONS of fossils of forest dwelling animals, even tiny little rodents whose bones you might not think would last any time all the way up to huge megafauna including mammoths, mastodons, horses, ground sloths...the later being roughly the same size as reported Bigfoot and probably as scarce as Bigfoot bleevers claim Bigfoot is...you know, when they're claiming how rare Bigfoot is to explain the lack of any fossils, hair, bones, hides, etc. as opposed to when they're claiming "The sheer number of Bigfoot reports practically prove it exists!"

[Guest LAL]

Ah, yes, and there "should be" roadkill. My source on the Giganto jaws being dragged into the cave by porcupines (or washed there) on the other thread is Russell Ciochon, BTW.

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

Ah, yes, and there "should be" roadkill.

One would think. I mean, every other American animal known to man -including man- has been run over on the road/hit on the highway...all the terrestrial animals, anyway, and not a few that fly and swim for that matter. Why not Bigfoot?

My source on the Giganto jaws being dragged into the cave by porcupines (or washed there) on the other thread is Russell Ciochon, BTW.

I still don't see what the significance of that was supposed to be in the context of the discussion -? I mean, you're the one who emphasized that, not me.

Edited July 11, 2011 by BIGFOOT BBQ

[Guest LAL]

One would think. I mean, every other animal known to man -including man- has been run over on the road. Why not Bigfoot?

Just lucky, I guess. A sighting Peter Byrne investigated (backed up by possible track evidence) involved a male apparently who turned in the middle of the road at night near Estacada, Oregon, and motioned to others (or other) to stay back. Apparently the driver was too stunned to accelerate. We know chimpanzees use "crossing guards".

I still don't see what the significance of that was supposed to be in the context of the discussion -? I mean, you're the one who emphasized that, not me.

Sorry. I thought I was being obvious. It's just plain blind luck those jaws were preserved at all. Without the porcupines they might not have been. Ciochon is the source on 1100 teeth, too. Maybe more have been found since then. I thought you might like to know the source, that's all.

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

Just lucky, I guess. A sighting Peter Byrne investigated (backed up by possible track evidence) involved a male apparently who turned in the middle of the road at night near Estacada, Oregon, and motioned to others (or other) to stay back. Apparently the driver was too stunned to accelerate.

Sighting claim = no physical evidence.

We know chimpanzees use "crossing guards".

And how do we know that -? Oh right: PHOTOS.

Thanks.

[Guest LAL]

Sighting claim = no physical evidence.;

The area was pretty trampled by the curious but Peter found a ridge of soil in the middle of the road right where the witnesses said it turned. It could have been pushed up by a foot. This was a two-witness sighting.

And how do we know that -? Oh right: PHOTOS.

Thanks.

Ah, but who'd a thunk it. I'll bet they didn't do that before there were cars.

[Incorrigible1]

Sighting claim = no physical evidence.

Agreed. The lack of physical remains is a real deal-breaker with the bigfoot creature.

See? We're not at complete loggerheads.

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

The area was pretty trampled by the curious but Peter found a ridge of soil in the middle of the road right where the witnesses said it turned. It could have been pushed up by a foot. This was a two-witness sighting.

"a ridge of soil" -? Gasp!

[Guest LAL]

"a ridge of soil" -? Gasp!

We were talking about why no roadkill, weren't we?

Aside from caution crossing lightly traveled roads there's the inclination of drivers to hit the brakes instead of hitting the animal. In one sasquatch-crosses-road sighting (with track evidence investigated by local law enforcement) the driver thought he was seeing an 8' tree - until it crossed HWY 14. I'd hit the brakes too. The county is mostly roadless - 1,684 sq. mi., 90% forested and Mt. St. Helens.

[Guest BIGFOOT BBQ]

We were talking about why no roadkill, weren't we?

Aside from caution crossing lightly traveled roads there's the inclination of drivers to hit the brakes instead of hitting the animal.

And yet many, many animals are killed by motorists every day. From the Washington State DOT website:

Q: How many collisions with animals are reported on Washington’s highways each year?

A: Each year more than 1100 wildlife/vehicle collisions are reported to the Washington State Patrol (WSP). It’s apparent that not all collisions with wildlife are reported since WSDOT removes an average of nearly 3500 deer and elk carcasses from Washington highways annually.

These collisions result in an average of 1190 human injures and two fatalities per year.

Q: What animals are most often involved in vehicle collisions?

A: Most reported wildlife/vehicle collisions are with deer and elk. Each year there are a few collisions with other large mammals such as moose, bighorn sheep, cougar and black bear.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Environment/Biology/FAQwildlifeCollisions.htm#areas

So...are we to presume that those 3500 elk and deer as well as moose, bighorn sheep, cougar and black bear occurred because the drivers in those instances did NOT have "an inclination to hit the brakes" but instead decided to try to plow the Subaru Outback over a 700 lb elk or a 1000 lb moose?

In one sasquatch-crosses-road sighting (with track evidence investigated by local law enforcement)

And they determined -what? An "investigation by local law enforcement" does not = "corroboration by local law enforcement"...not to mention that I doubt "Identification of Bigfoot tracks" is in the training manual. I'm not being snarky when I say that.

The association of law enforcement, clergy, military, etc. with Bigfoot reports, UFO reports, etc. is frequently cited and on the surface sounds impressive to a lot of people..but the fact is that such claims (even when true) add little value to validating the report. Did they (the law enforcement, clergy, military, etc.) corroborate the claims and if so, are they specifically trained or otherwise qualified to render an opinion on what they saw/think they saw that's any more valid than that of anyone else -?

It's significant -to me, at least- that credible, professional woodsmen including game wardens, forest rangers, wildlife photographers, etc. rarely report having seen Bigfoot. In fact, the dearth if not outright complete absence of photographs (of Bigfoot) by professional wildlife photographers is especially damning, in my opinion. Those guys make their living hiding out in the woods, getting photos of wary, elusive, even rare animals. To date, none of them have ever captured a Bigfoot on film to my knowledge.

The county is mostly roadless - 1,684 sq. mi., 90% forested and Mt. St. Helens.

And your point is-?

Edited July 12, 2011 by BIGFOOT BBQ

[Guest nona]

Bigfoot BBQ makes a good argument.

[Guest]

Possible bones have been found. See the Oklahoma Foot Incident thread.