The Kill Club

[norseman]

Hey norseman, with your hunting experience......what do you think of the Marlin 'Guide Gun' in 45-70? I am looking for something relatively easy to carry, but with substantial fire power......I prefer not to carry a pistol.

In all fairness, there are 3 choices to consider : Pro Kill, No Kill, and Protect my Butt Kill.

I have had at least 3 chances to possibly get a picture and/or video of a Bigfoot(s), but chose not to because of the aggressive & threatening situation I was in, plus I was unarmed.

If your encounter is based on the big lugs curiosity, you are probably OK, but anything else, especially territory, then you better hope you got norseman with you:)

I own a guide gun and it's absolutely positively my "go to" rifle. I wouldn't even consider a pistol.......the massive hand cannons are so heavy you might as well pack a rifle. I owned a Desert Eagle .50 and it was so heavy that after a day or so on my hip I would sling it on my saddle horn. So whats the difference between that and a rifle scabbard? My son is with me tonight and added that a rifle is much more easy to point and shoot as well!

A curious thing about the venerable .45-70 cartridge is that it's very old and was actually our nation's military cartridge at the time of the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Many ammunition companies load "safe" rounds because of liability reasons, concerning CUP pressure and old rifles like the Springfield Trap Door. But in all actuality there is simply no need for newer cartridges like the .450 Marlin if you buy custom .45-70 ammo or reload your own.

One company is Garrett:

http://garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

Expensive but well worth it if your butt is on the line. They have proven these rounds in Africa against Cape Buffalo.

Another is Buffalo Bore:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35

Notice the disclaimers in these companies fine print.

Today while xmas shopping for my wife I held a new guide gun in my hands. It was the 1895SBL and this is the rifle I would buy tommorow. Supposedly when Remington bought out Marlin there were some quality issues, but I think they have been worked out, and the rifle I held today looked superb.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895SBL.asp

There are also two custom 1895 custom rifle companies where you can buy goodies for them.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/

http://www.grizzlycustom.com/

Although the new SBL features some of the before custom add ons, you can buy tac light holders and even full on RIS fore grips for them as well as night sights. Really the sky is the limit with the Marlin 1895.......just takes money!

My guide gun goes with me everywhere.......

For hunting the new Hornady Lever Revolution rounds are pretty cool too. They are a aerodynamic round with a rubber tip so as not to set off a tube magazine explosion. (rubber tip against primer of forward round in mag) The Selkirk mountains of my home are so thick that we do not make very long shots on most occasions. I'm left handed so a lever gun makes life easier for me, instead of having to find left handed bolt guns. Plus I find a lever rifle much faster to work the action than a bolt too.

The only problem I have with the 45-70 is I helped skin out a buck that was shot with one using soft points and the penetration was extremely shallow, it failed to penetrate the shoulder, shooter was shooting at a downward angle distance about 60 yards.

I wish I had taken a photo when we were dressing it out because the bullet was squished flat like a half dollar and I was really surprised how little penetration occurred.

use solids

Garret ammo which is a solid has had complete pass through on Cape Buffalo in Africa. You do not need expansion on a bullet that is basically 1/2 inch in diameter!

So boiled down to brass tacks I believe you 100 percent and with this round, ammo selection is key. On top of that I bet the round in question from your story was one of the "safe" rounds that basically turn the rifle into a cap gun. They just simply under load the powder to keep CUP pressure down.

[norseman]

I think it could be done with 3 or 4 people with the experience, time and mind set.

Maybe go in during hunting season, and apply the same tactics or actually hunt what's legal.

But be in an area that is way off the beaten path, away from other hunters. Maybe that would mask our real intent or just be so deep we can do whatever we want.

Do the normal stuff during the day, but then be equipped to do a little night shift as a group.

If we suspect one is checking us out, leave one guy in camp, while the others get in positions that have been predetermined for safety reasons, but present some opportunity if it arises.

My biggest issue would be confidence in each other and target identification.

This would most likley be an up close affair, which would almost require a more tactical weapons set up as opposed to hunting, but I would leave that decision up to others.

Just not sure how to get within 50 yards of one unless it comes to you.

If we did get one it would be good if we were all together or could assemble quickly, do the dirty work and haul butt.

While I don't buy the wrath of Bigfoot theory, I would find it odd for them to be alone.

Hence the need for some weapons to deter that type if behavior.

While this most likely would be no different than harvesting any other critter considering the prey I could see it getting a little sideways pretty easy as well.

While I know some find this abhorrent the easiest way I can think of getting the parts would be a battery powered reciprocating saw, nasty but quick.

Unfourtunately I have thought about these types of "what if's" while sitting in a deer stand!

Too much...

Cervelo! I could kiss you! This is exactly the type of post I'm looking for in here!

There is a ton of things in your post that are good suggestions and theories on how best to tackle this issue.

I don't have a lot of time tonight but some quick thoughts are:

1) In the west where I live, we would not have to wait for a hunting season to go in. It's perfectly normal for camo'd men to be armed in the forest with guns........ok maybe frightingly so but it's not illegal by any means. The game wardens I know would laugh if we told them what we where doing. But I would be ok with setting a predetermined inspection point with a game warden so he could make sure we were not out poaching black bears and harvesting their gall bladders for the black market. If we had a squatch in the trunk? I guess it would be our turn to laugh at them........

2) We would absolutely have to be set up for night operations, as well as good communication systems.

3) Probably a good mix of big bore hunting rifles with some semi auto 7.62 rifles thrown in would give the team all the fire power and stopping power to stop a charging group of rhinos........

4) I think setting up a call ambush or bait ambush gives us a good chance of getting close. With team members placed in a classic "L" shape to provide cross fire as well as maximum safety for team members........with rear security thrown in for safe measure. Primates have trichromatic vision, which means that dad's old red plaid hunting mackinaw is out. We would have to be completely camoflauged as well as well versed in hand signals and "silence" all of our gear.......100 mph tape and para cord works wonders for that too.

5) I think we could draw heavily from military operations as well. One thought would be to buy a gorilla suit and practice some dry runs on a target. The more hands on practical experience we could gain in practice runs would pay heavy dividends later. We would also need to practice some live runs on a paper target, which is paramount to building trust among team members. My buddy and I made a few videos for Nam reenactment, and worked diligently with steps and positions just to get down a two man "Aussie Peel".

Those are live rounds and we made hundreds of dry runs to promote safety and trust before attempting to make that silly little video.

6) A Ranger style recon patrol if we had enough people would be good, you and one other touched on this. Small two man teams doing clover leaf patrols out of a patrol base, with a QRF or quick reaction force at the ready if any of the two man recon teams make "contact". Also each recon team would always remain in comm contact with the radio man and team leader at the patrol base.

The possibilities are endless and tactics would have to kept or jettisoned as experience was gained.

Thanks again!

PS, I have a 350 acre ranch in which we could safely do dry runs on. The video above was shot on the ranch.

Another thought

If you had a larger group of say ten or more

Set up a base camp with one or two guys staying there, then set up a bunch of spike camps over a large area, with each camp having one or two hunters

The base camp could be a communication center as well as emergency or organizational center

This is very similar to a Ranger style patrol base running clover leaf recons out of it.

Edited December 22, 2012 by norseman

[Guest Cervelo]

**** this would be fun to set up and make happen.....your very welcome Norseman,

Let's keep kicking it around for sure!!

[Explorer]

Amahnee- Excuse me it was the Ca. DFG #415 oops!

I checked in the link below and could not find 415 under the FGC in CA.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/noDataFound.xhtml

Can you describe in general what the regulation is all about.

I suppose that the CA Dept. of Fish and Game would not accept this license.

http://www.amazon.com/Bigfoot-Hunting-License-Rectangle-CafePress/dp/B009PB73JQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1356196440&sr=8-1&keywords=bigfoot+hunting+license

[Guest Cervelo]

Explorer,

This is just a guess on my part,

Most states consider all fauna/natural resources to be the property of the state, minerals, wild animals, plants ect. even water in Va.

You are issued a permit to harvest these resources hunting/fishing/mining/clearing of land.

Most states have verbage that makes it clear that you can't harvest anything outside what your permit allows, they don't have to call out what you can't shoot, hence you are only allowed to shoot what's on your license.

You shot a bear but have no bear tag, you might be ok if you claim it was a threat.

Some animals are designated pest and it's a free for all on them.

But you most likley still need a hunting license.

[gigantor]

You are correct Cervelo.

That doesn't apply to private land though, does it? unless it's a special case, like an endangered species.

The answer is simple though, you felt threatened by the animal at the time you shot it.

[Guest Cervelo]

I do think there are some exceptions to some rules for land owners and even age that vary from state to state.

Obviously your livestock and crops are yours.

[Guest]

Norse, I am completely with you. I enjoy topics like these, where methods, ideologies, etc, are discussed, which seem to be less and less as time goes on.

I guess I'll preface my comments with a little about myself, too. I am definitely pro-kill. I just can't decide if I'd have the courage to pull the trigger yet. I grew up right outside of the Gifford Pinchot, and have been running around those woods since the day one. I've been in hunting camp since I was 5 years old, and am now in my mid-30's. I bow-hunt with my step-dad, and had my first bow at 7 yrs old, and I rifle-hunted with my pops. They are reminiscent of Hank Jr. and Waylon, respectively, so I definitely had an interesting upbringing, and have that right-wing, outlaw way about myself. They are/were both really smart, and savvy in the woods, and taught me different elements and methods of hunting based on the instrument, time of year, conditions, and the habits of the prey.

I generally only elk hunt, nowadays, but have hunted cats, bears, goats, deer, birds, 'yotes, etc. I am a gaming special agent, my little brother is a Fish and Game officer, and my older brother went to Cornell(at the same time as Todd Disotell), and is a PhD in Chemical Engineering. My brother does a lot of wildlife survey work from the choppers in the area we hunt(and that I squatch) so I have a unique understanding of the elk habits around my area, and the general lay of the land. Dr. Briggs Hall does contract work with his dept also.

I was a hard-core skeptic my whole life(not that I put much thought into it, though), but after an encounter in '08(I had two that year), I joined the unfortunate ranks of being a 'knower'. I generally don't discuss the actual, tangible stuff that I witnessed, but there are people on here who I've told. I'm fairly guarded on stepping out onto the ledge and admitting certain things, due to the stigma that surrounds people who claim such preposterous things, and that your credibility becomes diminished in the eyes of certain people. I've never actually told anyone in my family that I have seen one, and I was on a hunting trip with them when it happened. It shook me to my core. Hard to describe. I consider myself a savage in the woods, but was humbled that day. I've been in the middle of a group that was knocking, and vocalizing for quite a few minutes(with a buddy of mine), that DR investigated. The Packwood tracks on his OP page were from that investigation. This last summer we did a midnight hike to Packwood Lake(Goat Rocks Wilderness) and heard what I'd describe as rock knocks, and had a rock the size of my fist hit the trail about ten feet in front of us, from up above somewhere. It was appx 1am. The pics from my FB page(PW Lake hike) are from that night. Last month, on the last day of deer season, I took a buddy from work, who is a retired police officer/F&G officer, and we heard a series of three, 10 second OOO-OOO-OOO calls, similar to what Les Stroud described to Joe Rogan, in the same spot as we were standing in '08 with the group knocking/vocalizing. I understand that all of the circumstantial stuff can be hoaxed by people, but I find that highly unlikely, being as I heard/witnessed them myself.

(Off to work...I'll add to this when it slows down)

[gigantor]

That's great, could you please post the pics here? not everyone has FB...

[norseman]

Norse, I am completely with you. I enjoy topics like these, where methods, ideologies, etc, are discussed, which seem to be less and less as time goes on.

I guess I'll preface my comments with a little about myself, too. I am definitely pro-kill. I just can't decide if I'd have the courage to pull the trigger yet. I grew up right outside of the Gifford Pinchot, and have been running around those woods since the day one. I've been in hunting camp since I was 5 years old, and am now in my mid-30's. I bow-hunt with my step-dad, and had my first bow at 7 yrs old, and I rifle-hunted with my pops. They are reminiscent of Hank Jr. and Waylon, respectively, so I definitely had an interesting upbringing, and have that right-wing, outlaw way about myself. They are/were both really smart, and savvy in the woods, and taught me different elements and methods of hunting based on the instrument, time of year, conditions, and the habits of the prey.

I generally only elk hunt, nowadays, but have hunted cats, bears, goats, deer, birds, 'yotes, etc. I am a gaming special agent, my little brother is a Fish and Game officer, and my older brother went to Cornell(at the same time as Todd Disotell), and is a PhD in Chemical Engineering. My brother does a lot of wildlife survey work from the choppers in the area we hunt(and that I squatch) so I have a unique understanding of the elk habits around my area, and the general lay of the land. Dr. Briggs Hall does contract work with his dept also.

I was a hard-core skeptic my whole life(not that I put much thought into it, though), but after an encounter in '08(I had two that year), I joined the unfortunate ranks of being a 'knower'. I generally don't discuss the actual, tangible stuff that I witnessed, but there are people on here who I've told. I'm fairly guarded on stepping out onto the ledge and admitting certain things, due to the stigma that surrounds people who claim such preposterous things, and that your credibility becomes diminished in the eyes of certain people. I've never actually told anyone in my family that I have seen one, and I was on a hunting trip with them when it happened. It shook me to my core. Hard to describe. I consider myself a savage in the woods, but was humbled that day. I've been in the middle of a group that was knocking, and vocalizing for quite a few minutes(with a buddy of mine), that DR investigated. The Packwood tracks on his OP page were from that investigation. This last summer we did a midnight hike to Packwood Lake(Goat Rocks Wilderness) and heard what I'd describe as rock knocks, and had a rock the size of my fist hit the trail about ten feet in front of us, from up above somewhere. It was appx 1am. The pics from my FB page(PW Lake hike) are from that night. Last month, on the last day of deer season, I took a buddy from work, who is a retired police officer/F&G officer, and we heard a series of three, 10 second OOO-OOO-OOO calls, similar to what Les Stroud described to Joe Rogan, in the same spot as we were standing in '08 with the group knocking/vocalizing. I understand that all of the circumstantial stuff can be hoaxed by people, but I find that highly unlikely, being as I heard/witnessed them myself.

(Off to work...I'll add to this when it slows down)

Well it certainly sounds like you are on a hotter trail than I am over here on the east side of the state. I've called for bear and coyote quite abit and I've as yet had nothing happen outside of the norm.

Thanks for sharing and glad to have you participating in this thread!

[norseman]

Yes we do.

Do Black Bear live in OH and Texas ?

Yes they do. Texas and Ohio

It looks like to me that the reintroduction of black bears in those two states is a fairly recent event. I think my reasoning stands that there most certainly could have been harmful civil projects in the past in those states that would not have taken a large predator into account. And that is giving your line of reasoning the benefit of the doubt that Squatch habitat perfectly dove tails with Black Bear habitat. Obviously with Squatch remaining a cryptid forever and no real scientific inquiry into the species........that is simply a question we will never know.

Norse, i agree with your point that they're dangerous first and foremost, i've said it time and time again and i've even said it on this thread.

These cases are open cases still, perhaps with scientific acceptance of the Animal they may all be then shut cases and the finger of blame will finally be pointed, is that what you're saying ?

That's NEVER going to happen, because it highly likely isn't true anyway.

Like everything else in this subject, there will ALWAYS be a more explainable option and a different probability to what actually happened than to blame a Sasquatch, and it's no different to that book.

Yes but I'm not advocating bringing in the Army Rangers and cleaning them out either. Through scientific inquiry into a species comes UNDERSTANDING. We have list's of do's and don'ts with bears. Could something as mundane as dressing your child in bright red clothes make them a target for something in the woods not yet discovered that COULD POSE A THREAT? It's possible that the 411 material is all just a bunch of coincidences, but I personally found it a little more compelling than that. Your mileage may vary.

It's real easy Norse, my brain isn't programmed to just think about North America and my bad for thinking that you'd be thinking outside of it. My " world " doesn't just revolve around North America and there are plenty of countries across the world that have endangered species acts. But i'll explain this again and show how we crossed wires as you obviously didn't understand the first time.

Again, and i repeat, you asked where the endangered species act had been a total failure and i answered you.

That was directly after i told you i had little faith in human beings on the whole, and " on the whole " doesn't mean just those in North America who, believe it or not, i don't think are as great as they think they are neither.

So we crossed wires there.

You was talking North America, i was talking about the world.

It's not that I do not have a global view, it's just that I do not have the funds or the assets to have such a large reach. Other than donating some money to the mountain gorilla fund or the like. Nor do I as a American citizen have a say in how another country manages it's wildlife. I guess we all have to pick our own battles........

But don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that you have traveled abroad and seen other cultures and wildlife as well as calling out the abuses! I would love to travel and see the world, but I'll be lucky if I get four kids through college.

I think you and I have reached a loggerhead of sorts, I'm not convincing you that they are better off as a recognized species, and your not convincing me that they are better off as cryptids into perpetuity.

[Explorer]

I am a gaming special agent, my little brother is a Fish and Game officer, and my older brother went to Cornell(at the same time as Todd Disotell), and is a PhD in Chemical Engineering. My brother does a lot of wildlife survey work from the choppers in the area we hunt(and that I squatch) so I have a unique understanding of the elk habits around my area, and the general lay of the land.

Thanks for sharing your experience and background, PacNWSquatcher.

Can you tell us what is the position or policy of the Fish and Game Dept. in WA with regard to hunting BF?

If there is no written (or unwritten) policy, how do you think they will react once one specimen has been collected?

I read in your post that you don't share your views or sighting experience with work colleagues because of the stigma attached, so maybe this topic is never discussed at F&G?

Also, you stated that "I just can't decide if I'd have the courage to pull the trigger yet."

Can you please elaborate on what the courage issue is all about? Not clear if it is due to your fear of retribution from other BF's around or if it is due to some ethical concerns or other issue.

[MagniAesir]

A curious thing about the venerable .45-70 cartridge is that it's very old and was actually our nation's military cartridge at the time of the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Many ammunition companies load "safe" rounds because of liability reasons, concerning CUP pressure and old rifles like the Springfield Trap Door. But in all actuality there is simply no need for newer cartridges like the .450 Marlin if you buy custom .45-70 ammo or reload your own.

Even though I own a 450 Marlin I agree with you completely

The only reason that I have a 450 Marlin and not a 45/70 is because I prefer the model 94 over the guide gun and the only 94 timber I could find was in 45o marlin

I use Hornady 350 gr FP with as stated muzzle velocity of 2100 fps which iirc is very close to their same loading for the 45/70

My rifle prefers this load over Hornady's leverevolution ammo for what ever reason.

I do plan on buying a ss guidegun in 45/70 next year for one of my quad guns

[norseman]

My first rifle was a 94 chambered in .30-30, Winchester makes good rifles, with the model 70 "pre 64" being at the top of the list.

I like the 1895 Marilin better though because of side ejection which allows you to put rails on top of the receiver which makes the rifle much more flexible.

But as far as a "cowboy" look? Nothing beats a Winchester lever gun!

[MagniAesir]

I like my traditional lever actions barebones

My 94 has ghost rings sites, which for me work better then buckhorn sites for target acquisition

I have a 336 in 30/30 and a marlin 44 mag, I tried low power scopes on both of them, but soon took them off

If I need a small quick handling rifle with a scope then I use my remmington model 600 mohawk in 308 win although my winchester model 88 in 308 win was my favorite deer rifle for years.

My brother has a win model 88 carbine which he has had re-chambered to 338 federal and 18 1/2 inch barrel, it is a real sweet handling bush rifle