Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest]

My only agenda is to get through all the noise and clutter surrounding this issue, and learn the real truth.

I would be thrilled if BF is proven to exist. It is just difficult for me to distinguish between true information and hoaxes anymore.

[Guest BartloJays]

That's pretty funny Ronnie Bass since as far as I can tell the only purpose of this thread is to discredit Dr. Ketchum IMO .

These guys got nothing but a story and some bear DNA and some sort of beef with her.

As far as I can tell you've got "nothing," nothing to do outside of adding nothing to the conversation

[Rockape]

Rockape, no offense and I really appreciate your questions, but the Moneymaker/BFRO suggestion is ridiculous. I'm not concerned with what Matt says or doesn't because there's zero association to what we're doing. That's a fact. I've talked to MM once in the last 6 months as I mostly stay in touch with Bo and Cliff with their hectic schedule. I don't even know how up to date he is as we don't discuss the Sierras stuff and we haven't even had an opp to really discuss the thermal footage I got Aug 23 near the killsite. In addition, I'm in multiple organizations, represent them equally and I work with who I want, when I want as long as they care about the truth under any circumstance. Now, had we held out results as some have suggested would've been appropriate because of concern regarding perception of Ketchum's study and share them "after" her release which I would contend goes against the whole purpose of screening the sample in the first place and reasons of our concern, that would've been irresponsible imo .....I'm sure people would've accused us of this. It's a ridiculous suggestion for a ulterior motive and will appear even more ridiculous when you see the transparency of emails and the extra mile that we went to make sure this tissue was properly vetted.

Bottom line, you want me to be disappointed, keep the status quo with respect to results, you want me to thrill me then

Bart, no offense taken and I appreciate your answers (and Tyler's). I just felt the MM factor could be why some are questioning motives and it needed to be addressed. Hopefully we can move on from that now.

As I said, I don't see what you guys would gain from undermining MK. It would be a big gamble. If her results come out and hold up, it would seriously damage the credentials of those who did try to discredit her, and I think you guys are smart enough to know that, if that were the case here that is. But you have to remember you guys know more than we do, so I hope I gave you an opportunity to at least get your side out.

And I can also see why you would still have faith in Smeja. I have tried to base my opinions on what I know Smeja said, not what I have read someone else say he said. If the guy is just playing us all, I have to say he is a master at it. However, I do think the damage is done here. It's going to be hard for people in general to have much faith in him at least as for settling the BF question. As of now, his is just another of the many BF stories. I still hope something comes along to change that, but don't really see it happening.

[Guest Thepattywagon]

Did you guys ask Justin if he's ever killed, skinned, cleaned or otherwise been in close proximity to what was undoubtedly a dead bear while wearing that pair of boots?

I only ask because it seems strange to go all in on the assumption that any blood or other tissue on his boots would have come from the day of the incident.

[southernyahoo]

"Thus, per Ketchum, this sample would not have been included in her study." But the results our labs came up with, and some other info that Justin may release put Ketchum's word into question ... you've got a bit of circular reasoning going on, or are overlooking some of those facts.

Did you notice in the report that the second round of testing was on a single strand of hair that had so little human DNA present, that they could not even get a proper sequence? Yet that same hair yielded what I am told are expected amounts of bear DNA. (I am trying to ascertain what an expected amount of DNA might be for a single hair. The lab report cites 3ng of DNA from the hair).

So the human DNA seems to follow the tissue? I can see how one hair might have more or less contribution from bear or human, but it seems prudent if the Trent testings was done "dirty" to find contamination, to also exercise protocols to remove contamination and see which falls out of the picture. Did the hair have a tissue tag on the root or was it cut from huggins 1?

[Guest BartloJays]

And I can also see why you would still have faith in Smeja. I have tried to base my opinions on what I know Smeja said, not what I have read someone else say he said. If the guy is just playing us all, I have to say he is a master at it. However, I do think the damage is done here. It's going to be hard for people in general to have much faith in him at least as for settling the BF question. As of now, his is just another of the many BF stories. I still hope something comes along to change that, but don't really see it happening.

Thank you Rockape. I'm confidant when all information is out people will understand and "respect" my "personal" feelings towards Dr. Ketchum, but that's a totally separate issue then wanting to see her fail. The people that know how much my passion for discovery burns, know this is absolutely asinine (outside of that circle-which is big- it's understandable to get that perception not having all info). I would not only be thrilled, but I would openly applaud her for her efforts in execution and you can take that to the bank. Tyler has already made it clear how he feels as well.

As for Justin, I listed all the reasons why I think he's telling the truth and I would contend that anyone in my shoes with what I know and have experienced would at minimum lean that way. Can I be wrong? Absolutely, wouldn't be the first time in my life and frankly, without "hard" corroborating evidence, I wasn't standing with them that day, hence I will never definitively state something as an absolute truth I'm not in a position to do so. I've also said from the beginning and Justin understands this more than anybody; without substantiating evidence the Sierras incident is anecdotal...at best. No one is under any illusions otherwise.

On the other side, nothing has changed as Tyler and I were never promised or guaranteed this tissue was from the subject (we've already said what each of us had confidence-wise in it based on circumstances and timing) he claimed to shoot and not once have I caught Justin lying or even backpeddling since I've known him.

What's complicated things now in a good way, and would've never happened without even the claim of this incident, is we have an active seasonal area in an incredibly viable habitat where I got thermal footage (myself and all those with me and who worked on it, know is 100% legit) and there's amazing opportunity there from an evidence potential standpoint, visual and otherwise. Coincidence? I can't say for certain.

Are you saying there is no big payday on the horizon, pending the results of this case and the testing?

Are you suggesting somehow there is and without knowing us personally or our backgrounds you're going to assume "money" would incentivize us?

No offense to anybody as we're here to answer questions and we enjoy doing so because no one wants non-truths out there and there's some fascinating aspects to this incident, but we only have so much time and some of you guys have some really great questions. If questions are going to be obvious insults they are either going to be ignored or answered in parallel tone. If you're question is ignored, please read back through the thread and you'll most definitely find your answer. Questions like "why haven't you processed the boots," why do you guys still believe Justin" etc...have been answered so many times you may only have to go through a few pages.

Just want to maximize the time we've have for those serious about wanting answers.

For now however, let there be football

Edited December 30, 2012 by BartloJays

[Cisco]

Bart & Tyler

I have a hypothetical question for you guys so please take it for what it's worth and answer accordingly.

Let's assume that a lab was able to analyze the blood on Justin's boots and that the lab was absolutely certain they had 100% conclusive results from the testing. Hypothetically, the lab's results were black bear and no other traces of anything else was found.

Would you still believe Justin's story?

Thanks in advance for humoring me.

[Guest]

apehuman posted some material from an individual named "caz" about potential PCR problems in the Trent study. The data shown in the Trent report show that there were no problems with the PCR amplification. First, the gels show single, clean bands of the correct size. The PCR products shown on the bear and human gels are the same size as you can see by comparing their position to the molecular weight markers in the far left lanes. So, there is no size difference as suggest by "caz". Second, the PCR products were sequenced. The sequencing showed no evidence of overlapping sequences or the presence of more than one target DNA. Moreover, sequencing confirmed that the primers annealed to the correct gene. There are no PCR problems in the Trent report.

Also, I don't have a problem with Bart or Tyler telling the labs they were interested in "uncataloged primate" DNA. Experiments are obviously designed to test hypotheses, and the hypothesis here is "the sample comes from an uncataloged primate". The null hypothesis is "the sample comes from something other than an uncataloged primate." Trent essentially tested those hypotheses to the best of their ability. You can't design an experiment unless you have idea what you are looking for.

The fact that Trent and the other lab reported the samples to be bear, when they knew they might be uncataloged primate, actually convinces me even more that their results are solid. If you brought me a sample and told me it might be from an uncataloged primate (and therefore, a huge discovery) I would bend over backwards to find DNA from an uncataloged primate. The fact that two, independent labs reported bear tells me the labs are trustworthy.

Before closing, I also want to gice kudos to Bart and Tyler for all their time and effort and expense in getting these studies accomplished. I want to also thank them for making the data public and their continued participation in the forum. Thank you gentlemen!

Genes

[Guest Tyler H]

Thanks for the answers to my questions. That is all they were..... questions. Testy is part of the surf here, no harm no foul. I still don't understand why a single hair was "all" that was tested? Is that all you wished to have tested? Is that all the sample you had? Just simple questions looking for facts.

The single strand hair test suddenly put all prior testing into clear focus. I could have pressed for further testing, but the expense would have been superfluous, in my opinion.

A couple of great posts there Footdude, and I know Tyler and Bart might not like them, but I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed. I too find it a bit odd that they still support Smeja,

Sorry to sound frustrated, but it HAS been addressed over and over and over and over. I seriously don't know how many times I have explained it and/or posted the link to my article about why I believe(d) Justin aside from the physical evidence. In any court case, there is a whole "body of evidence" many things aside from the physical evidence make up that body. And once again, justin NEVER asserted that he had any PROOF that this sample was from what he shot. He hoped it was, and felt confident it seemed like a match, and Melba told him it was, so that boosted his confidence. I have yet to discover a single lie from Justin to me.

I realize you just said you are done with the boots questions, but I would like to ask something that I don't think has been addressed. Do you have any general idea of how long we are talking? ...

I realize this will be more complex testing because the boots probably have had blood from numerous animals on it so this might be a hard thing to answer. I think the notes you are going to release will be very helpful to people who want to have DNA testing done. Thanks for what you are doing and thanks for any answers you have.

Before my experience from this undertaking, I would have said three weeks. I would now say 6mos. And I think there is a good chance Bart's estimate of $10k could be considerably low. My first efforts up here resulted in an invoice for $7200 and some are saying we should have done more (and maybe they are right). I think the boots will be much more complex. ANd if there is a genome that needs mapping, that will add huge amounts to the bill. Mapping a known genome is not that expensive these days, but I think an unknown one would be very costly. I am aware of some of the alleged amounts paid to the Ketchum project, and they are very large.

Bart & Tyler

I have a hypothetical question for you guys so please take it for what it's worth and answer accordingly.

Let's assume that a lab was able to analyze the blood on Justin's boots and that the lab was absolutely certain they had 100% conclusive results from the testing. Hypothetically, the lab's results were black bear and no other traces of anything else was found.

Would you still believe Justin's story?

Thanks in advance for humoring me.

I don't think that is a good one to speculate on. I think there is still a chance we would believe him, as the labs I have spoken to about this say there is a good chance any DNA on the surface of those boots will be degraded beyond recovery/identification. I would peg our chances of succcess at 20% with conventional technology. I'm hoping advances in the technology (recent and future) will change that. I feel confident that rushing into the boots poses more risk than waiting and making the right choice.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Tyler H

[Guest crabshack]

As far as I can tell you've got "nothing," nothing to do outside of adding nothing to the conversation

Oh, I disagree.

If Ketchum gave her results to Justin, I still don't see why one would not sit back and wait for the peer review because dna testing cost, as you so pointed out, a hell of a lot of money.

Why would someone do that?

[Guest BartloJays]

Oh, I disagree.

If Ketchum gave her results to Justin, I still don't see why one would not sit back and wait for the peer review because dna testing cost, as you so pointed out, a hell of a lot of money.

Why would someone do that?

You may feel differently when you get all the facts, including a major one which was a precursor for urgency to test indepdently. However, any major red flags aside, based on you not seeing any wisdom in checks and balances especially with respect to the claim (a hybrid bigfoot), I'm not holding my breath in your case.

I just couldn't disagree with you more and it's easy for you to say when it's his butt on the line and not yours.

[Guest Scout1959]

That's pretty funny Ronnie Bass since as far as I can tell the only purpose of this thread is to discredit Dr. Ketchum IMO .

These guys got nothing but a story and some bear DNA and some sort of beef with her.

As far as I can tell you've got "nothing," nothing to do outside of adding nothing to the conversation

Actually it is adding to the conversation. It goes to motive which is something that no matter how much you may patently deny is still a very real issue.

Let's be honest this is all too common in the world of BF. Egos bruised and bustling are the order of the day and every time I read "nobody wants more than me" I realize what the poster is actually saying is "if they turn out to be right I'm going to slit my own wrists".

Cervelo may not have stated his point as eloquently as possible but ineloquence is something shared by a great many in the world today. We're all guilty of it from time to time just some of us more often than others.

Again his point is salient and one that everyone here needs to bear in mind when reading through this thread.

[Guest]

For anyone that works in this industry, I have a few questions:

1. How difficult is it for someone to create an artificial chimera in a basic lab?

2. How difficult is it to get human stem cells for research purposes?

3. Can you extract a hybrid version from this creation if it never gets past the cellular stage?

4. What would the DNA analysis show for such a thing? Would it truly be unique or would you get hits on different areas of the genome for the different species used to create such a thing?

5. Is this regulated? Laws?

Edited December 30, 2012 by CTfoot

[Guest crabshack]

when it's his butt on the line and not yours.

Ok, what law did he break?

As far of the State is concerned he shot a purple fluffy dragon, right?

Hes not alone someone, I know too a shot at one too, big deal.

[GuyInIndiana]

And I'm curious what yours is in this thread? Because you seem to have an agenda yourself.

Don't people have the right to post here and express their opinions?