Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest]

Mods, please delete, it is a duplicate post. for some reason the first post did not show up for several hours, sorry

Here's a question for anybody following the whole matter -- If the testing of J's boots is conducted in a manner concordant with Melba's methodologies, and the results show no indication of BF, how will that affect your level of belief in the shooting story and Melba's study?

Cheech, and others, how would you know if you were following Ketchums methodologies? I do not think she has released any of that information?

A year and a half ago, it looked like she was doing SNP, now it looks like she is doing whole genome sequencing?

There is no way to replicate her methodologies just by guessing!

On the other hand, the use of STR - the same methodology of Id used by FBI and others in their databases (as well as the Sierra steak / smeja justin bart sample)- essentially looking for the number of matches at 15 know variable sites, and doing the math to determine chance of 15 matches all the same, that is completely valid in this case. I am not sure if a complete genome is any better than STR in this particular instance. You may have so much data - 3 billion base pairs, that it may be difficult to process, analyze and sort it all out!

The analogy I use is:

so I hand you a 5 dollar bill, you can look at it, and you know what it is. You can examine it closely, and know it is not counterfit. But if you chose to look at it under a 1000 power microscope, you would have to examine a whole lot of very high resolution "pictures", and be able to place them accurately, to be able to figure out it was a 5 dollar bill. Hell I could give you 1000 photos taken through my scope, and you could not identify even that it was US currency, let alone what denomination. It would take alot more pictures and alot more patience, and alot more flawless effort to even get to the point of IDing it as money, let alone a 5 dollar bill!

The analogy is not perfect, but hopefully you see my point. Getting alot more A&T&G&C's is not neccisarily more powerfull or more telling, sometimes it creates alot of obtusification!

Edited January 16, 2013 by slowstepper

[Guest]

What has happened to Justins statement that he was going to release? He said he would explain in a couple of days, then went quiet.

[Guest BartloJays]

It will be coming soon in next few weeks as he's been absolutely buried with work. Rest assured it will come soon according to last we discussed it.

[Guest Tyler H]

DNA testing has revealed that burgers in the British Isle contain horse meat: Horse Meat Discovered In Burgers Sold In UK And Ireland Four major supermarket chains operating in Britain are withdrawing a number of beef products after horse DNA was found in frozen burgers sold in the UK and Ireland by Aldi, Iceland, Lidl and Tesco. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI), which made the discovery, said the burgers were produced by two processing plants in Ireland, Liffey Meats and Silvercrest Foods, and Dalepak Hambleton in the UK. In nine of the 10 burger samples from the four retailers, and from the Irish chain Dunnes Stores, horse DNA was found at very low levels. However, in one sample, from Tesco, the level of positive DNA indicated horsemeat accounted for 29% relative to the beef content. — http://www.businessinsider.com/horse-meat-discovered-in-burgers-sold-in-uk-and-ireland-2013-1 Thus, it appears that it is routine to be able to resolve mixtures of tissues from different species.

Actually, the lab I used at Trent University was chosen for many reasons, but one of them was their work on situations like this - they developed protocols for testing meat (sausages and such) to determine what quantities of what species were present in the meat. It seemed like this was a bit of a feather in their cap, so while it is now commonplace, coming up with predictable, relaiable methodologies to do this sort of thing was apparently a bit of an undertaking at the time.

That is correct assuming the unidentified progenitor race made it over the Bering land bridge and intermingled with the established hybrid. It's my understanding that it is the hybridization that makes it sasquatch, sasquatch=unkown+human according to Dr. Ketchum.

Sorry to go back to this, but our discussions surrounding this topic got me to thinking: The posited "only way the 100% human mtDNA makes sense" is if we ended up with a single family group that came to North America - said family group would have been the result of unknown male and human female mating.

So, if this is true, then we should expect all Sasquatch in NA to have the same haplotype. If they don't then this theory is disproven, no? And if this theory is disproven, then the claims that all the squatch samples have 100% human mtDNA also fail, correct?

[Guest]

Stubstad claimed that there were two separate haplogroups identified within the 3 mtDNA sample tests he saw. Two of the three samples gave an extremely close match, but the third had something like 50 base pair variations, with a match only found deep in Africa.

Whilst I know not everyone agrees on how Stubstad has interpreted the data, the above is the nearest we have to any detail around Ketchum's tests.

(These results may later have been corrected or revised - who knows - but we can only work what what we do have ... and Stubstad has given up more than Ketchum so far.)

[Martin]

Bartlojays and Tyler H.,

I Think you guys have done a great job of being open with information and should be commended.

Do you have any formal or informal investigative training?

[AaronD]

Thanks, Martin. My sentiments exactly Seriously, we need more folks at the forefront who are willing to share like they do. And another thing, the fact that Bart ended up being friends with Justin tells me he (Justin) is a genuine guy in real life--actually goes a long way in the credibility factor IMO.

[Guest]

Sorry to go back to this, but our discussions surrounding this topic got me to thinking: The posited "only way the 100% human mtDNA makes sense" is if we ended up with a single family group that came to North America - said family group would have been the result of unknown male and human female mating.

So, if this is true, then we should expect all Sasquatch in NA to have the same haplotype. If they don't then this theory is disproven, no? And if this theory is disproven, then the claims that all the squatch samples have 100% human mtDNA also fail, correct?

You could end up with more than one individual human mtDNA in the mix, but I would think a population group would have very little variation in actual haplotype. The haplotype would most likely be the same since those arriving here were probably inter-related family groups, but not necessarily if more than one HSS racial group came here. However, human population studies don't indicate that to be the case when looking at the Native American lineages here in the US. One would think if you were going to find HSS mtDNA it would be one commonly found in Asians or Native Americans, the HSS population group that first made it to North America via the Bering land bridge according to human population studies, not from the France.

Or Africa, for that matter, Stubstad was a brilliant man, but his specialty was engineering, not genetics. I don't take too much of what he said as gospel although I don't think he deliberately misrepresented anything.

Edited January 17, 2013 by CTfoot

[Guest slimwitless]

So, if this is true, then we should expect all Sasquatch in NA to have the same haplotype. If they don't then this theory is disproven, no? And if this theory is disproven, then the claims that all the squatch samples have 100% human mtDNA also fail, correct?

This is exactly why I believe Ketchum and crew think hybridization is ongoing. Both Ketchum and Robert Alley have dropped enough hints to suggest this is what they're thinking. I've posted about it several times.

I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night but it seems to me if the females that crossed the land bridge all had the same human maternal Eve and there were subsequent hybrid events in NA, it could conceivably account for multiple haplotypes in the samples (and no pure sasquatch). If you go with the controversial salutrean hypothesis and assume the first hybrid was in NA, then maybe something about the hybrids allowed them to out compete the pure sasquatch. I may be hallucinating but I'm pretty sure Ketchum said there were no Native American haplotypes in her samples. Did anyone else hear that? I think it was on her recent C2C interview (but it could be the Calgary radio interview).

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean they think it happens all that often. 15,000 years is a long time.

Edited January 17, 2013 by slimwitless

[southernyahoo]

Sorry to go back to this, but our discussions surrounding this topic got me to thinking: The posited "only way the 100% human mtDNA makes sense" is if we ended up with a single family group that came to North America - said family group would have been the result of unknown male and human female mating.

So, if this is true, then we should expect all Sasquatch in NA to have the same haplotype. If they don't then this theory is disproven, no? And if this theory is disproven, then the claims that all the squatch samples have 100% human mtDNA also fail, correct?

If it's possible for some other hominin to mate with a female human 15k years ago, it's still possible today and the haplotype could be from any of the maternal lineages depending on where and when a cross occured.

[Guest]

If it's possible for some other hominin to mate with a female human 15k years ago,

Not possible in my book. No other hominin but *US* at that time...

Edited January 17, 2013 by ronn1

[Guest Tyler H]

You could end up with more than one individual human mtDNA in the mix, but I would think a population group would have very little variation in actual haplotype. The haplotype would most likely be the same since those arriving here were probably inter-related family groups, but not necessarily if more than one HSS racial group came here. However, human population studies don't indicate that to be the case when looking at the Native American lineages here in the US. One would think if you were going to find HSS mtDNA it would be one commonly found in Asians or Native Americans, the HSS population group that first made it to North America via the Bering land bridge according to human population studies, not from the France.

Or Africa, for that matter, Stubstad was a brilliant man, but his specialty was engineering, not genetics. I don't take too much of what he said as gospel although I don't think he deliberately misrepresented anything.

I don't think Stubstad's intelligence comes in to play here. He did not make this determination himself. I spoke with Richard at length. The number of haplotypes was relayed to him via Melba and/or other scientists. He did not make the conclusion himself.

Thanks, Martin. My sentiments exactly Seriously, we need more folks at the forefront who are willing to share like they do. And another thing, the fact that Bart ended up being friends with Justin tells me he (Justin) is a genuine guy in real life--actually goes a long way in the credibility factor IMO.

I hate how much of this story hinges on Justin's character, but it really does. In the absence of solid physical evidence, I would throw this story out the window 999 times out of 1000. But everything Justin has done surrounding this encounter, and everything Justin does in his daily life, speak of someone who doesn't mislead people, who doesn't agrandize anything, who wants the truth, who knows the difference between bear and bipedal animals, etc, etc, etc. Justin has proven to me that he is a very solid, reliable individual. I couldn't have created a better person to be at the middle of this storm. (That's not a comment on his decision to shoot these animals - it's a comment on his decision to be truthful no matter what, and to pass up opportunities that appealed to self-interest, in favor of the truth.)

Edited January 17, 2013 by Tyler H

[Guest slimwitless]

Not possible in my book. No other hominin but *US* at that time...

I think your stuck on Disotell's misinterpretation of Ketchum's press release. Besides, you've already stated you think Bigfoot exists. That doesn't exactly jibe with what you just said.

[Guest]

I think your stuck on Disotell's misinterpretation of Ketchum's press release. Besides, you've already stated you think Bigfoot exists. That doesn't exactly jibe with what you just said.

I don't know where I stated that *bigfoot exists*..I admit at one time I was on the fence. No longer..I'm a firm skeptic.

As far as the 15000 Yr thing...I was of that opinion before I ever heard of Disotell. A simple grasp of anthropology and evolution rules out any notion that there was some unknown hominid roaming around at that time...when native americans were firmly established in NA.

[Guest Tyler H]

I don't know where I stated that *bigfoot exists*..I admit at one time I was on the fence. No longer..I'm a firm skeptic.

As far as the 15000 Yr thing...I was of that opinion before I ever heard of Disotell. A simple grasp of anthropology and evolution rules out any notion that there was some unknown hominid roaming around at that time...when native americans were firmly established in NA.

"simple grasp of anthropology and evolution rules out any notion that there was some unknown hominid roaming around at that time"

Huh?

Somebody tell the two Phd Anthropologists I know who are convinced of the viability of Sasquatch's existence, about this - I'm sure it will be news to them