Release Of Forensic Dna Results For Sierra Kills Sample

[Guest BartloJays]

Beware unintended consequences. If there is a Ketchum paper that has been undergoing peer review for more than 30 mo, and if you were a skittish peer reviewer and learned of a split sample being determined to be a black bear, would you recommend immediate publication or, at best, to proceed with extreme caution.

Honestly, "if" multiple PHD's using "blind" testing exist, I say "if" because there's been no third-party substantiation up to this point (which "maybe" there's a legitimate explanation for that), then I sincerely doubt perception within the bigfoot community is a major influence as the supposed science, is the science. I don't personally buy an argument otherwise. That's my opinion.

We've been hearing that for a month. Playing hide the weenie is a great way to lose credibility, and Justin doesn't have credibility to waste. By the way, we've been hearing Bart's lab results are imminent for a month, too.

Not that anyone owes anybody else an explanation for anticipated or inconvenient wait times by interested parties, but it's absolutely true that Justin has been buried with work (bigfooting is not the first and only priority in most peoples lives) and he regrets making the statement almost a month ago that he'd have something out so soon and not meet that commitment. He's apologized for that and will probably do so again in his statement. No one's procrastinating or hiding anything.

Having said that, it's my understanding he should have something out by the end of the weekend.

As far as my OK lab, I just finally received the report late yesterday afternoon after being promised I'd have it in hand before Xmas. The director apologized profusely to me as he's been both busy and out of town (which you won't have to take my word for that, just read his own words in emails I'm releasing with it) which is unnecessary imo as he was more then generous with his time with me over the last 6 months. I should have it out by the end of the weekend (extremely busy, hence haven't been on here much) as I'm heading into some winter research on the NorCal coast next week and definitely want to get it out before departing.

I'll start answering questions however when I release it as things are pretty crazy here trying to get things done so I can leave stress-free next week. FYI, it came out really cool as he included quality pics of the samples which is a nice touch.

Please try not to read into any absence of information as being anything more then daily life and responsibilities from any of us (which all of us have young families and careers as most of you guys have been there) as I'm so frustrated at myself not having the thermal footage released yet I even brought in another party I'm deferring to on footage breakdowns so I can get that out around the time I return from NorCal in mid-Feb.

I'll try again.

Have any of you, Bart, Tyler and/or Derek, counseled Justin Smeja regarding his still-coming-soon statement in any way at all?

Do any and all of you encourage him to do so as he said would do?

I talk to Justin quite a bit, so I'm intimately familiar with his personal situation "away" from bigfoot business. There was never a question if he was going to follow through with sharing what he's wanted to, but again, the timing was not in his control and family/work comes first. It'll be good having everything out on the table as he has some important things to share that should make a lot of sense. Dozens of my closest friends/colleagues/confidants etc.. in this field have been completely caught up from me "privately" as things unfolded in the last year so what Justin has to say won't be major news to many.

[Guest]

Bart,

Knowing you somewhat, I'm not inclined to think you or your partners have nefarious motives, but promising a delivery date and missing it by a month is not reputation-enhancing, and I believe your reputation is important to you. Justin admitted killing two large animals, but harvested neither for food or science. As a hunter and gun owner, such behavior is shameful, and he has much work to do if he wants to repair his reputation. It seems his reputation is not that important to him. It is better to deliver without pre-announcement than to pre-announce and fail to deliver — especially in this hoax-ridden field.

However, in the end, you are right — science trumps all. So far we have Tyler's lab report, which is infinitely more science than Ketchum has produced. And, I look forward when reading your lab report soon.

For what it's worth, I won't blame you and Tyler for killing the Ketchum paper. While I hope she can deliver, I have been doubtful of her ability to do so for at least a year. Peer review does not take more than 2.5 years, and there are other avenues of publication besides peer-reviewed journals.

Give me a bit of credit for waiting a month before I bellyached.

Pt

[Guest njjohn]

Should be a good weekend then

I think the buzz that Sykes was doing an analysis and report might be the reason Ketchum's paper was rejected more than Tyler's and Bart's report being released. The peer review community has a history of playing favoritism, so along with the timing of Sasquatch moving across the icebridge complaint we heard about, they could just be delaying long enough that Sykes gets published first.

Should check to see if there's any connection between those who reviewed Ketchum's report and Sykes.

[Guest]

Well said PT, I think a lot of us have run out of patience with Ketchums song and dance about definite proof coming "soon" for the last three years and unfortunately Tyler and Bart are catching the tail end of it. I appluade these two for releasing this information and look foreword to the second lab report with all the emails being disclosed , along with Justins statement for public review. I feel its the impatience of this study dragging out so long that most just want a conclusion to end the seamly ever ending speculation if the study is all its been hyped up to be. It's been long and frustrating.

[Guest BartloJays]

Appreciate the kind words and support guys as we're all trying to do the right things. SS, I agree as there's definitely a residual hangover from Dr. Ketchum's paper. PT, you're preaching to the choir my friend as I would agree with you 100%, accept on the reputation part for anyone involved. I'm not worried about my reputation, I stand by it with a long track record, that you'll get the truth from me always and when I say I'm going to do or provide something (Tyler as well) you can bet we're going to follow through.

Justin is usually pretty consistent in his commitments and Tyler and myself probably would've held back a little here in our discussions in reference to the impetus of testing to not unnecessarily build up anticipation had we known there was going to be a delay, but things happen sometimes. I'm guilty as well because I should've had my thermal footage out months ago and though I've been handing the link out (Felton presentation) like hotcakes one on one with many people, I still take responsibility for the delay after indicating a likely timeframe. If it wasn't for Mike Rugg (my good friend) needing the shot in the arm in Oct for Bigfoot Discovery Day V, no one outside my immediate circle would be anticipating the footage because I just would've released it when I was done without any warning. Once I did the Felton presentation, I had to announce with details or there would be rampant rumors and inaccurate expectations on quality and because of the area in which I filmed them. Though it goes against what I believe (build up hype) I'd make that sacrifice for a friend like Mike again in a heartbeat and not blink.

With respect to Justin, the statement he's making is his own in that it's not a coordinated effort so to speak. Nor is it an attack. It's the truth and will explain alot. The only suggestions he got from me was articulation suggestions (not his strong suit as you know... don't want the facts he's sharing to get lost because they are important) and making sure if something isn't precise memory wise to let it go. He's had all of this on his chest for a long time with respect to Dr. Ketchum.

[Guest]

It's probably just as well that CA F&G didn't take this seriously...if THIS can happen for helping wildlife, can you imagine what they'd do to Smeja for shooting not one but two uncatalogued primates?

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/police-officer-wife-could-face-jail-time-saving-130022946--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=Aq_f9z4QlHxesTgaI0M4Pqh.oFlH;_ylu=X3oDMTQzbDRqNm01BG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIFRvcFN0b3JpZXMEcGtnAzRkZDlkYjQyLTgyMGQtMzlmYi1iMDY3LTNiMGI1NmRlMWNjNQRwb3MDNQRzZWMDTWVkaWFTZWN0aW9uTGlzdAR2ZXIDMzdjZWE5N2ItNmExZS0xMWUyLWFiZWQtYzg5NGEzZjg5MDBl;_ylg=X3oDMTMycm5jOHI1BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZGYyYmI5OTYtOTdhMi0zYTU2LThjOTItMDVjMGQyODc1ODZjBHBzdGNhdANob21lfHRvcHN0b3JpZXMEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3

[Guest Tyler H]

Justin admitted killing two large animals, but harvested neither for food or science. As a hunter and gun owner, such behavior is shameful, and he has much work to do if he wants to repair his reputation. It seems his reputation is not that important to him.

Pt

I mean, Justin's reputation is important to him... but I'm actually very proud of, and thankful for, the fact that his repuation is NOT as important to him as truth is.

When people are too concerned about their reputation they may be inclined to embellish, or at times minimize things. If Justin was too concerned about his reputation as a hunter, there are a lot of features of this encounter that never would have come to light - such as shooting the juvi, or shooting either one of the animals in the manner and circumstances described.

Next to nothing about this encounter has made Justin look good... it's one of the reasons I have believed him. What HAS made him look great in my eyes, is the way he has held to his pursuit of truth, and rejection of self-serving opportunities since that time. I would have dropped this all a long time ago if he decided to cash in, or got too concerned with a more self-agrandizing version of the story.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tyler H

[Guest]

Plussed, for two very important points.

Made me feel kind of small using a penname, but I see I am not alone, it is a taboo/ridiculed topic still...

Justin will never have the luxury to remain private, and possibly never get the evidence he seeks. Or if he does, perhaps it will be more difficult. Either way, he has not gone on to try and capitalize on that notoriety in any obvious manner, it's been two years, and he still makes himself available for us 'BF investigators'.. I believe him.

I mean, Justin's reputation is important to him... but I'm actually very proud of, and thankful for, the fact that his repuation is NOT as important to him as truth is.

When people are too concerned about their reputation they may be inclined to embellish, or at times minimize things. If Justin was too concerned about his reputation as a hunter, there are a lot of features of this encounter that never would have come to light - such as shooting the juvi, or shooting either one of the animals in the manner and circumstances described.

Next to nothing about this encounter has made Justin look good... it's one of the reasons I have believed him. What HAS made him look great in my eyes, is the way he has held to his pursuit of truth, and rejection of self-serving opportunities since that time. I would have dropped this all a long time ago if he decided to cash in, or got too concerned with a more self-agrandizing version of the story.

Edited January 30, 2013 by apehuman

[Guest]

Bart said:

Honestly, "if" multiple PHD's using "blind" testing exist, I say "if" because there's been no third-party substantiation up to this point (which "maybe" there's a legitimate explanation for that), then I sincerely doubt perception within the bigfoot community is a major influence as the supposed science, is the science. I don't personally buy an argument otherwise. That's my opinion.

Bart, It's pretty clear to everyone here that you and I are close. You've told me and others privately, and publicly that you trust me 100%. You know that I trust you 100% as well. I have told you that I know the people and places that have done the blind studies. I've seen the list of universities and labs that worked on that sample. If you do indeed trust me brother I don't know why you won't believe me about this. Do you think I'd try to pull one over on you? Not in a million years my friend. You know that's not how I roll. You see, I am the third party, and if you can't believe me, you can't believe anyone. IMHO, a belief, and trust are two of the strongest things in the universe. If you believe someone, or trust someone, there's really nothing stronger...if you truly believe or trust them. All I'm saying is I would never BS you man. I love ya like a brother.

Justin will come out with his statement, and I'm sure it will shoot more holes in Melbas character, but nothing will change the science done. Melba has said and done some odd things, and Justin has said and done some odd things. My organization has worked with Melba and the samples we've submitted, and we most certainly have high hopes for the data. We hope it helps open doors toward species verification. On the flip side, Justin is my friend and I strongly hope for a continued friendship with him. Believe it or not I stand in a very awkward place, and I look very forward to the day when I can put down the referee shirt and whistle. Quite frankly I'm sick of it. Bigfoot research was a heck of a lot more fun 20 years ago before the blogs and face book. It's turned into a three ring circus.

All that being said, I personally look very forward to the day..( hopefully soon ), when Melbas study and Bart & Tylers study can be put side by side and compared. IMHO it will hopefully answer a lot of questions....and maybe, just maybe, all can learn from, and I dare say..work together for the good of the science and potential discovery.

DR

[Guest]

I mean, Justin's reputation is important to him...

Really? Doesn't seem like it. I was surprised to learn yesterday that Justin is a licensed hunting guide. I am not familiar with the game laws of CA, but in the jurisdiction I was raised in:

- Carrying a loaded rifle in a vehicle is illegal,

- Shooting from a vehicle is illegal,

- Shooting from a road is illegal,

- Shooting a bear without tagging it is illegal,

- Wasting a game animal is illegal, and

- Any guide admitting to multiple violations of game laws would have his guide license swftly revoked.

I'm actually very proud of, and thankful for, the fact that his reputation is NOT as important to him as truth is.

I think one's propensity for truth telling is an important aspect of one's reputation, so it seems odd thing to be proud of; but, there are many who would like to see bigfoot discovered — by hook or by crook. I'm willing to overlook Justin's unsavory behavior if:

- He is willing to make a contribution to science (which he appears to be doing), and

- He is willing to clean up his act as a hunter and guide (which, especially now that he's a public figure, would be an exceedingly wise thing to do).

After all, in today's gun-grab climate, we don't need hunters or especially guides who wantonly violate game laws. To tell you the truth, I'm surprised, given how over-regulated CA is, that enforcement of CA game laws seems so lax.

The point I made in my last post is that promising, but not delivering, is not a good way to rehabilitate one's reputation. It's something learned in Project Management 101.

[Guest]

Have you seen the (1 Hr plus) interview of Justin by Team Tazer? I suggest anyone interested in who he is view it.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

Bart knows that a good number of the samples submitted are legit. Add that to the fact that Dr. Ketchum has been doing DNA analysis for a long time and you have a recipe for a real bigfoot study in my opinion.

Edited January 31, 2013 by OntarioSquatch

[Guest Tyler H]

You see, I am the third party, and if you can't believe me, you can't believe anyone. IMHO, a belief, and trust are two of the strongest things in the universe. If you believe someone, or trust someone, there's really nothing stronger...if you truly believe or trust them.

Bigfoot research was a heck of a lot more fun 20 years ago before the blogs and face book. It's turned into a three ring circus.

All that being said, I personally look very forward to the day..( hopefully soon ), when Melbas study and Bart & Tylers study can be put side by side and compared. IMHO it will hopefully answer a lot of questions

DR

My nose doesn't belong in this conversation, I suppose...but I have to point out Derek, that you really can't be that third party that we put faith in.

No insult, but you just don't have the credentials to thoroughly vet this info. (I know PhD’s biologists who say they don’t have the credentials to parse the massive amounts of data that the illumina system has produced for Melba/you.) And secondly, you can't even relay the info from the report to any of us (for instance, you can't name a PhD that was involved, due to your NDA's, and maybe due to the fear that we would contact them). Also, you are just too heavily invested in the outcome here. Melba has been your sole provider of genetic testing for your samples. She HAS to come through for you. I wish it wasn't that way, as I think it's likely that you had some good samples. But now all your eggs are in that basket. Hopefully that basket is water-tight.

Related to that, in my opinion, is your quote that reminds me of when you and I met at the Sierra site… it’s the main catalyst for you and I not seeing eye to eye:

"IMHO, a belief, and trust are two of the strongest things in the universe. If you believe someone, or trust someone, there's really nothing stronger." - You were offended that I had tried to ask around about Ketchum, and not pleased that I felt we should vet her more thoroughly before granting her sole custody and access of Justin’s samples.

Faith and belief and trust are great things... and in marriages and friendships, perhaps there is nothing more important. But we are dealing in matters of science here (and matters of extremely large sums of money). In those cases, trust has to be earned... and if it is earned through information in a study that is beyond my ability to properly decipher it to the level necessary, then I need to set aside that trust, and make sure that objective professionals who have the skills to understand the information, also trust it. Your trust and belief may be very strong, but does that make it ACCURATE? Even the bible's definition of faith rests on evidence. Faith is like the title deed to property - it is the proof that it exists. Now, I guess you have what you feel is that ‘title deed’ in the form of Melba's report. But for a long time you did not and yet had faith in her. You resented that I tried to do ANY sort of checking up on her, prior to allowing her to be the sole recipient of Justin's samples.

In my view, there are protocols that should be followed with physical evidence – one of those is that where possible, more than one lab should be used, in order to ensure that there are checks and balances. Another is that the right of control over anyone’s samples should not be turned over to a single source who wants copyright on ‘anything and everything’ associated with the samples.

Re bigfoot research only being a 3-ring circus in recent years... I think Bigfoot research was also a 3-ring cirus 20 yrs ago. You just weren't Byrnes, or Dahinden, or Green, or Hieronimous, or Marx or Freeman etc, way back then - you are now up at that level, and are experiencing the same sorts of conflicts they had back then.

"I personally look very forward to the day..( hopefully soon ), when Melbas study and Bart & Tylers study can be put side by side and compared"

Agreed - but I think rather than a side-by-side comparison, we are likely to just have PhD's looking to see evidence of the sequences identified in our PCR testing, influencing the blast results of the Illumina testing - pushing the results towards 'unidentified'. The questions will be whether the data is pure, or whether it has been misinterpreted due to contamination. If snippets of sequences from say bear, have become interlaced with sequences from say, Justin contamination, then that could account for the sort of conclusions Melba is reaching. Genbank would have to reach to try to find the closest match to something like that.

Has or does anyone close to Justin Smeja now counsel him not to release his detailed statement

or do they still encourage him to do so as he said?

My understanding is that there has been quite a bit of pressure on Justin to NOT make the statement that he has been wanting to make. But that pressure has not come from Bart or me.

[Guest BartloJays]

Bart, It's pretty clear to everyone here that you and I are close. You've told me and others privately, and publicly that you trust me 100%. You know that I trust you 100% as well. I have told you that I know the people and places that have done the blind studies. I've seen the list of universities and labs that worked on that sample. If you do indeed trust me brother I don't know why you won't believe me about this. Do you think I'd try to pull one over on you? Not in a million years my friend. You know that's not how I roll. You see, I am the third party, and if you can't believe me, you can't believe anyone. IMHO, a belief, and trust are two of the strongest things in the universe. If you believe someone, or trust someone, there's really nothing stronger...if you truly believe or trust them. All I'm saying is I would never BS you man. I love ya like a brother.

Knowing what we all do internally, I don’t think that’s fair to ask or expect. Having said that, I love ya like a brother as well and without question, think you’re being 100% honest about what you’ve seen as I absolutely know you’re someone to be trusted and not a liar as you wouldn’t be one of my best friend’s if I thought differently (and vice versa) …no question.I believe you’ve seen a paper that appears viable and has names and even universities on it but neither one of us is credentialed or knowledgeable enough to interpret the actual viability of that data it may possess on our own. I trust you but I don’t trust the people you do who’ve interpreted the data for you.

You’re not the “third party.†The third parties are the specialized persons who physically worked on the samples and we would’ve periodically shelved our data had we been assured by one of those third parties that they’ve validated the Sierra’s sample. This was not acceptable to Dr. Ketchum and burying our results without justification was not acceptable to us. Furthermore, you’ve never talked to a third party (I know no one who has) who actually worked on this or any other sample in her study.

Try to look at it this way, the equivalent would be me telling and then “expecting†some of my closest skeptic’s friends that because I’ve definitively seen a bigfoot without the possibility of error, how can they not trust me that I’ve seen it, why do they need more evidence? Now let’s take it a step further and they’ve seen nothing but contradictory evidence to what my claim is and they know… I know…..they know about what that contradictory evidence is firsthand. That’s the closest analogy I can give that makes sense. The difference is I would never expect them to accept that.

At the end of the day, neither of our opinion’s should matter when it comes to the actual data as we may be decent field researchers in many persons books (some we may not LOL), but we are out of our league when it comes to interpreting sophisticated data (understatement) we are not educated or have specialized knowledge in… hence, in our case, I defer to the two lab directors we utilized who signed off on the samples with their reputations behind their work until or unless I see differently.

Justin will come out with his statement, and I'm sure it will shoot more holes in Melbas character, but nothing will change the science done. Melba has said and done some odd things, and Justin has said and done some odd things.

I disagree with this as it has nothing to do with shooting holes in her character by him merely telling the truth as she’s not above reproach. Why shouldn’t she be held responsible for her behavior, attempted actions and words (it’s not your fault). In addition, Justin should not be coerced by anybody into delaying sharing what he wants to get off his chest because of others fear how she will be perceived by the bigfoot community. Justin should do exactly what he wants to do without influence, especially taking into consideration now he’s been falsely accused publicly of taking tissue off a body and or switching samples to cover his butt, when and ONLY when, Dr. Ketchum is confronted with results she prophetically predicted a year ago (from indep labs) when attempting to deter independent testing. At the end of the day, Dr. Ketchum's work will stand or fall based on its substance…. Not on character. If it we lived in a world where it did, there’s only one person who would deserve the blame for that.

My organization has worked with Melba and the samples we've submitted, and we most certainly have high hopes for the data. We hope it helps open doors toward species verification.

The latter part is something we all can agree on and one thing that gets lost in all this as the Olympic Project turned in the most samples into her study (I'd bet many are viable) as a lot of effort was put into obtaining those by Derek and company. I pray those samples got the attention and examination effort they truly deserve.

On another note everybody, I regret to tell you that I've learned in the last few hours that a good friend of ours in this field, Scott McClean, has passed away.

Godspeed to you Scott, I will cherish the time spent together in the woods over many years and will miss you my friend!

Edited January 31, 2013 by BartloJays

[Guest Tyler H]

<deleted post that had been questioning why recent posts were not visible when I came to this page.

Once I made this query post, I could suddenly then see the 'missing' recent posts.>

Edited January 31, 2013 by Tyler H