Hoaxes, Hoaxers, Frauds, And Con-Men In The Bigfoot Community

[Rockape]

If he dug a footprint with his hand, then he faked it, it wasn't a real footprint,

RayG

You said you've done the same. Put yourself on your list.

[Guest]

What a lame way to try and attach John Green's name to those of known hoaxers, fraudsters, and hucksters. Pretty pathetic attempt in my opinion.

Doesn't Loren Coleman usually write a satirical April fools story on cryptomundo every year? Better add him to the list.

Edited January 6, 2013 by AlbertaSasquatch

[Guest RayG]

You said you've done the same. Put yourself on your list.

I wasn't filming a documentary.

RayG

[Rockape]

Doesn't matter, How do you know someone didn't come along and see the print, and to this day think they found a BF footprint?

[Guest RayG]

What a lame way to try and attach John Green's name to those of known hoaxers, fraudsters, and hucksters. Pretty pathetic attempt in my opinion.

You have your opinion I have mine. And mine is this:

All the names/incidents listed have some form of hoaxing associated with them or attributed to them. It may seem a very small touch of hoaxing/chicanery, or it may be a full-blown, elaborate hoax, but there are sources for each of them.

Disagree if you wish, but closing your eyes to it won't make it go away.

Doesn't Loren Coleman usually write a satirical April fools story on cryptomundo every year? Better add him to the list.

I shall consider doing so.

RayG

[Guest]

What a lame way to try and attach John Green's name to those of known hoaxers, fraudsters, and hucksters. Pretty pathetic attempt in my opinion.

Doesn't Loren Coleman usually write a satirical April fools story on cryptomundo every year? Better add him to the list.

Actually Loren Coleman (and David Barkasy) should be on the list, they claim copyright on the Myakka photographs which clearly they didn't take.

Edited January 6, 2013 by ThePunisher

[Guest]

I fail to see how closing our eyes to the history of fakes and fakers within bigfootery will make it cease to exist or go away. My 'agenda' is to point out some factual information. If anyone can present good reason why a name or incident should be removed from the list, I'm certainly willing to revise it.

RayG

For one thing, it's 99% based on your opinion of who may or may not be hoaxing and your proof to this point in the thread is a lot of "so and so said or thought [x] was a hoaxer".

Also, special dishonors to your use of Patterson's filming of a documentary wherein he freely admitted to making a track for the documentary to infer hoaxery in other areas.

We don't have to prove [x] did NOT hoax (prove the negative fallacy). Since you are the one putting them on the list, it's your claim to prove with affirmative evidence.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Mulder

[Guest GoLd]

Loren Coleman should be on that list as well, for reasons other than what was stated above.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/images/nape.htm

GoLd

[Guest]

Ray, your criteria and agenda for compiling this list are suspect IMO. I knew about Green's April Fool article, I just never considered it a legit hoax and neither did Green. Doesn't intent and context count for anything? Otherwise, your list isn't relevant to me. But it's YOUR list and more power to you!

[Guest]

As to the P/G film, it's what brought me in fourty years ago. I have always thought it was real, but the one thing that bothered me was the fact he got the footage while trying to sell a movie and in all likely hood hurting for money. Does this mean he hoaxed? No, but money is always one of the biggest motivators. I really can't believe I'm saying this because Roger Patterson was always one of my heroes, but one must stay objective.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

The film stands on its own merits.

[norseman]

Simply because someone pulled a prank at one point in their life doesn't mean they are a hoaxer or a fraud.

The intention is important.

[Guest]

OntarioSquatch, you preaching to the choir on the P/G film. For decades I have been telling all my friends it has to be real for all the reasons we won't rehash here, but to my knowledge, it still cannot be said to be 100% real.

[Guest RayG]

Simply because someone pulled a prank at one point in their life doesn't mean they are a hoaxer or a fraud.

The intention is important.

But isn't that like someone saying they've never been in a car accident as long as they didn't cause the accident? Green isn't hoaxing now, but he hoaxed then.

Pssssttt... the PGF isn't on the list.

RayG

[roguefooter]

I partially addressed this back in post #10...

>>Morgan's inclusion is because of his fiasco with the National Wildlife Federation back in the 70's. Morgan claimed that he and his heavily financed team had "found 161 tracks, collected fur, seen the beast, and recorded its vocalizations.... [Peter] Byrne accused Morgan of faking the tracks--and was promptly fired... He [Morgan] left behind a load of unpaid bills." -- from Joshua Blu Buhs, The Life and Times of a Legend: Bigfoot, page 194.<<

Actually, Byrne was one of Morgan's scientific consultants.

Blu Buhs wrties on page 194: "If it was only Byrne's word against Morgan, there might not be much to the story. But Morgan's actions were those of a con artist. He made grandiose claims, saying that he had been behind Skamania's law against killing a Bigfoot. He misrepresented his hunting team: the scientific experts had bachelor's degrees and a smattering of graduate work, but nothing that could be considered real scientific expertise. (One was Ed Killam, who had won the grants to study Bigfoot.) He left behind a load of unpaid bills. The National Wildlife Federation, leery of the whole situation, tried to distance itself from Morgan, but he repeatedly asserted that the federation itself had sponsored him, and continued to do so after the grant was gone and the National Wildlife Federation no longer had any dealings with him. Even the people who Morgan had brought with him to Washington considered him a liar. One said, "I have dropped all relations with the man, and think associating with him in any way is a threat to anyone's professional reputation.""

Blu Buhs footnote for the paragraph above indicates the following correspondence: Morgan to Byrne (July 24, 1974), Byrne to Morgan (October 15, 1974), Edward W. Killam to recipients (November 5, 1974), Isadore Hanken to Whom it may concern (November 18, 1974), Laymond Hardy to Thomas L. Kimball (February 1, 1975 [quotation]), and Thomas L. Kimball to Edward J. Lehman (July 24, 1975), all contained in the American Yeti Expedition papers.

So, as you can see, it wasn't merely Peter Byrne who had issues with Robert Morgan.

Suspicions, accusations and sour grapes from rival researchers- that doesn't fit the bill of "factual information" does it? Your claim is hoaxing- I want to see your factual information of hoaxing. Unpaid bills means hoaxing? Since when? People get distracted, people get lazy- it happens every day with millions of people. Im not seeing the whole story here- what is Morgan's side of the story? Did Blu Buh's add that to his book? Or is this yet another one-sided viewpoint?

Byrne has a long history of throwing other researchers under the bus and trying to make them look bad, that's why I take his word with a grain of salt.

My use of 'any' memberships did not truly reflect the situation. I'll admit that Patterson (or someone on behalf of Patterson) mailed back 'some' memberships, but 'many' memberships and books were not. According to Rene Dahinden:

"Patterson told me that the Yakima postmaster hauled him in two, three times because he collected money off people for books and never sent them out." -- from Greg Long's, The Making of Bigfoot, page 192.

Long also includes a Dahinden quote on page 192, that originated in a newspaper interview Dahinden gave in the Clackamas County News, published August 23, 1979 -- "Patterson was a shiftless deadbeat "and jerk" who never paid his bills, etc.,... Patterson was also a crook."

Once again more 'he said,she said' from yet another rival researcher who liked to throw others under the bus. See a pattern here? Dahinden loved to paint Patterson as a dishonest crook, but strangely had no issues with securing the rights to Patterson's book- the one written by a "crook". Or fighting for the rights for Patterson's film- the one made by a dishonest guy. Funny how that works, doesn't it?

Being slow, distracted, or lazy doesn't make one a criminal. If his plan were to simply take people's money as you claimed, then it makes no sense to do it selectively.

I won't even go into how one-sided and biased Greg Long's book is. Anybody can write a book- it doesn't require factual information or the complete story to do so.

If he dug a footprint with his hand, then he faked it, it wasn't a real footprint, which he could have easily manufactured using his own foot. Aren't documentaries supposed to be factually accurate and contain no fictional elements?

If the point was to show HOW to cast a track then what difference would it make? It could be a simple round hole for all it matters. I fail to see how this equates to a hoax in any way.

Your avatar says "Prove it!", remember? Even Spock is looking at your posts with disbelief.

Edited January 6, 2013 by roguefooter