N A W A C - Field Study Discussion

[chelefoot]

Ok,  I live in East Knox County...very close to House Mountain. My brother lives in Kodak... spent lots of time on Norris Lake as well.

 

Sorry to get off topic...

[hiflier]

Hello chelefoot,

Me too, apologies to the OP. See you around then.

[Guest]

I just popped on the old BFF to see what was up and noticed this new thread pinned up here and thought I'd drop in to give ya'll some added perspective.

 

I've been on-and-off the BFF and "Bigfootery" in general for almost 10 years.  Seriously interested for maybe 4-5 years.  The subject interested me and I would check up on the latest news from time to time.  I never was a believer although I never outright rejected the idea that sasquatches were real creatures either.  The whole time I kept an open mind and bounced back and forth between the two sides.  Some days I thought they probably weren't real and some days I thought they were.

 

I've watched bipto's attitude change from when I first watched him on the BFF 1.0 to the very staunch advocate he is today.  Anyone who has been following the TBRC/NAWAC for a while should be able to see the attitude difference (in the group as a whole and some of it's members) in the past few years since Operation Forest Vigil ended and Operation Endurance began.  Watching that change and reading/listening to the Operation Persistence recap that bipto gave last year prompted me to apply for membership in the NAWAC last October.

 

Meeting many of the members face to face, interacting with all of them on the forums, helping at the annual conference this Spring, etc. has me fully convinced of their stories.  All of the people I have met are solid individuals with strong character and most are experienced outdoors enthusiasts.  They are doctors, nurses, small business owners, bank managers, teachers, professors.  Many are former military members.  They aren't crazy people.  They seem to be fairly normal outside of the whole wood ape obsession thing.

 

 

 

With so many people seeing Bigfoot in this area and so much evidence of them around shouldn't there be some decent pictures or video?

There are some pictures or videos taken of evidence/encounters for internal consumption, like the picture bipto posted about the nut-cracking 'station' or video interviews.  As to why there aren't any pictures/videos of actual animals, I think the average sighting in X is a few seconds at best.  By the time anyone realizes they are seeing an ape, it's gone.  I've challenged my personal friends with this task and yet to see anyone process what's happening, grab an electronic device in their pocket, and begin shooting video/taking pictures in under a few seconds.  And they aren't outside in the elements, holding other equipment in their hands, looking at something else, etc.

 

Lastly, taking high quality photos/videos for public consumption isn't a high priority for our organization.  We're trying to prove the existence of a now-mythical animal.  If I took a picture of a unicorn in the wild, you'd just laugh and wonder in amazement of my Photoshop skills.  A dead unicorn on a table, examined by multiple scientists running hundreds of tests on DNA, horn material, hair type, etc. is a different story.  The precious few seconds of the sightings most NAWAC members have are almost always used to dial in a rifle - not a camera.  Assuming the sighting last long enough for even that to take place.

 

 

 

So in reality this is a very small pond to be a big fish in. Although I know nothing of NAWAC, I dont think there are huge financial gains for being involved in their quests, maybe a tee shirt sale every now and then perhaps. So, I am led to logically believe that they are sincere in their goals and believe in themselves, having kept at it for years, albeit without physical success.

This is the primary reason that I decided the NAWAC was legitimate (before joining).  When bipto is talking about operations in Area X it really comes down to 3 possibilities.

 

1. The NAWAC is lying.

2. The NAWAC is being hoaxed.

3. The NAWAC is encountering an undocumented species of primate.

 

2 is so improbable to me.  I really have no idea how anyone seriously considers hoaxing to be a possibility.  The only way onto the property outside of the road is to hike in through miles of dense bush.  So, assuming the NAWAC is being truthful, but being hoaxed, you have a dedicated team of human beings who spend all year wearing monkey suits.  Hot, cold, rain, snow - doesn't matter.  They apparently have no shelter and no normal food as nothing has been found within a few miles of the cabins in X.  They are all human beings at the absolute top level of athleticism, so much so they could be making a name for themselves in the Olympics or professional sports.  They get shot at several times a year.  All for no apparent financial gain.

 

They do all of this, to hoax a bigfoot group.

 

That's insane.

 

So you have 1 and 3 remaining.  In order for 1 to be true, you have get a couple of dozen people to agree to lie and to not contradict each others' stories in public.  The only things I can really believe people would do that for is personal satisfaction (a) or money ( .  B is easily debunked.  You can figure this out from the outside, but inside the organization I can tell you that the NAWAC is not exactly a money-making machine.  We members buy a lot of the merchandise for ourselves.  Any money the group makes off merchandise sold at the annual conference, for instance, is either plowed back into the cost of holding such a conference or used to buy field equipment.  The members use their own personal vacation days to take part in NAWAC events, cover their own costs of food, gas, and lodging, etc.  We don't sell $500 expedition tickets to X, although at this point we could probably bank if we chose to do so.  We don't sell ourselves on TV although we could easily do that too.  Because both of those money-making things interfere with the goal of the organization - conserving wood apes and their habitat.

 

A is harder to debunk, but all I can give you is my word that 90%+ of the members don't give a flip about bigfootery in general and spend zero time trying to impress anyone here or elsewhere of their stories.  If a group of people was going to lie in order to boost their reputation in the insignificantly tiny pond of the bigfoot world, I would imagine they would be more interested in what the tiny pond was saying and thinking.

 

That, personally, left me with option 3.  There are other reasons that support my personal opinion, but the argument above is my explanation for why I joined the NAWAC and believe the group to be credible.

Edited July 7, 2013 by ShadoAngel

[Guest UPs]

Hey Shado....I wondered where you have been and sure sounds like your in the right place. From the outside, the NAWAC seems like they have their ducks in a row and many of us hoping you are successful. Good luck to you and the rest of the members and be safe.

UPs

[Guest]

Tree stand, no scent approach?

 

Primates don't have especially good olfactory senses so, IMO, scent isn't something you need to be too worried about when dealing with these animals. WRT non-traditional hunting techniques, we're trying a couple things that may pay off. 

[Guest]

1. The NAWAC is lying.

2. The NAWAC is being hoaxed.

3. The NAWAC is encountering an undocumented species of primate.

 

These continue to be the only three options on the table. Number two is preposterous for quite obvious reasons. Anyone who can read my words has my absolute solemn oath that what we are encountering is real and the result of an undocumented species of North American primate. So, one or three? Your choice.

[Wheellug]

I'll take a whack at it...

 

 

I have to go with 3.

 

Have to discount 1 as all apparent evidence tends to be provided. 

 

Tangled webs of deception tend to always come unraveled as we've seen in the past from  all  to many others. 

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

I really don't want to jump on the popular wagon wheel of "so and so is credible, therefore they are telling the truth". As much as I would like to believe #3, I can't totally rule out the first option and I don't think anyone else can either unless they really know these people or have been to the area themselves. A monkey would clear all of this up though. Because you can't fake a real monkey

Edited July 8, 2013 by OntarioSquatch

[norseman]

Well there is always the fourth option. Misidentification. People are not lying about what they saw, they are just mistaken.

 

Now don't think for a second that I'm applying this to NAWAC, I've looked at these guys/gals backgrounds and I think they are very competent people.

 

But there is a fourth option.

[Guest]

Well there is always the fourth option. Misidentification. People are not lying about what they saw, they are just mistaken.

Now don't think for a second that I'm applying this to NAWAC, I've looked at these guys/gals backgrounds and I think they are very competent people.

But there is a fourth option.

Until there is indisputable evidence, I like the idea of the "Fourth" option. Though I find Brian/bipto to be a very sound person. Edited July 8, 2013 by St.Croix

[hiflier]

Hello bipto,

I'm directing this to you for your opinion:

http://soundcloud.com/jim-sherman/icmmontage

Do you think introducing this soundbyte via a projected sound source would create a curiosity factor for SSQ in your neck of the woods? Explaining this further: I'm thinking that "families" or local communities of SSQ have localized characteristics in their vocalizations (howls, etc.) that they learn from the parent population. Also that genetics play a part in the design of voice physiology giving a region a distinct tone and/or dialect. Bringing in a vocalization from a different region of the country, in this case Michigan, might be seen as a competitive element from outside the local group that needs investigating. I'm thinking it could draw an animal out to be photographed, tranquilized or shot. Thoughts?

To keep things above board I've already presented this idea to Norseman's Grendel Project.

Edited July 8, 2013 by hiflier

[norseman]

I'm wondering if these Bobo esque howls are the ticket, or just straight up Gorilla vocalizations?

 

How do we vet Bigfoot calls?

[Guest]

Norseman: The fourth option could be applied to several possible encounters.  But I think several aspects can't be covered by that option.  You can not misidentify rocks that wind up on a roof that has been swept clean the day before.  The rock was thrown there (unless anyone knows of other instances where rocks fly out of clear skies) so you're back to humans (1 or 2) or apes (3).  I rule out smaller animals like raccoons or squirrels due to the size of some rocks being bigger than those animals themselves are.  Also several witnesses are 100% positive on what they saw clearly, if briefly.  You have some serious issues if you confuse a black bear with an enormous bipedal gray ape in broad daylight (for example).

 

I suppose that's why I didn't think of including misidentification earlier.  There are some cases that I don't think it can be applied to and others that it is almost as unlikely (IMO) as the hoax option.

 

Lying is far easier and more likely than hoaxing or misidentification.  But that's my 2 cents.  I maintained that last year and still believe so.  I just now believe the lying option to be <1%.

 

Nothing is going to prove things one way or the other till a body comes in.  Everyone is free to believe what they want, I was just letting you know why I think it's the real deal and what motivated me to get off the sidelines and into the game.

Edited July 8, 2013 by ShadoAngel

[norseman]

As I said in my post, the fourth option wasn't directed at NAWAC, I think you guys are competent people. But as a rule of thumb I would include it in dealings with the general public.

[hiflier]

Hello Norseman,

Good question. Perhaps ape calls would be the way to go as we know them to be real.