The Researchers And The Choice.

[JDL]

And there's probably one that wants to pet you.  Consider learning to purr.

[NathanFooter]

 JDL, you crack me up LOL .

 

 To get back to the point, I have seen first hand the case of human encroachment.

 

 I should mention that this issue may not be as pronounced in the northwest but here in the east is becoming more plain everyday.

 

 It bothers me to here people say ,, BF has made it through this and this so he should be able to handle this situation as well ,,.

 

 This makes no sense to me because the circumstances are different, we now have the ability to broadcast information in seconds to masses and from long distance.  We now have the power to destroy and build at amazing rates and with a growing population of people and a shrinking habitat there will be more sasquatch in harms way and maybe even becoming dependent on human garbage.

 

 If they are as rare as some believe this could lead to the species being pushed to the cliff that is extinction and even go unnoticed because there is such low public awareness of the species even existing in the first place.

 

 The bottom line is that we are responsible for them simply because of the fact that we are the dominate species on the planet and we manipulate their world.

 

 I would have thought that almost the entire research community would have an even deeper understanding of this because they have the knowledge of existence.  From my view point, we owe them the protection from our dangerous massing of ignorance.

Edited December 31, 2013 by NathanFooter

[hiflier]

Hello NathanFooter,

Please....continue.

[Guest]

LoL, Nathan, you should listen to some Alex Jones, you won't be worried about BF for very long. It sucks to see land development and overpopulation. Watership Down was written in what, the 50's or the 60's? Totally sucks. Every last vestige of private land where I'm at is being developed, because people in 'other states' have destroyed their nest and are seeking 'greener pastures'. I've seen this destruction since before you were born.

 

That beings said, BF does not WANT to be found. What makes you think you know better than BF?

 

I think BF knows what is best for them. Actually, they just do what they have always done. Stay out of sight of most people. Modi-operandi. How many people get killed by them every year? Probably less than Drunk Drivers from foreign countries.

killing Americans.

 

We have lots of problems you should be focused on. Give Alex a listen. Don't worry about BF. The only thing you need to worry about is if your on the menu.

 

$20.00 bucks for that please. No more freebee's.

[NathanFooter]

 Wag , what makes you think bigfoot KNOWS what is best for them ?  After all, their understanding is limited by the fact they are built for a forest environment { this part is once more significant after you read this post through the second time }, NOT walking down the street to go to Staples to buy pencils for their English class.

 

 By all points of reason the sasquatch is doing like any living thing should, surviving the way they know how.

 

 No wildlife likes to be found but we go out track them down and make sure they have the ability to survive.

 

 You wrote ,,  Actually, they just do what they have always done. Stay out of sight of most people. ,,   and that is precisely why we need them to be discovered and have land set aside for them. In the next 50 years they may not have the means to ,, stay out of sight ,, let alone affectively reproduce and exist in peace.

 

 Respectfully, I know exactly what problem I am focused on.

[Guest]

Nathan.. you remind me of myself, about a half dozen years ago... regarding my thoughts and concerns on the topic.

I'm certain your intentions are genuine, but consider a couple things.

The extreme probability, that they will not be officially "discovered" as a species, in our lifetime. I'm expecting members to disagree with that estimate..but I'm more of a realist, than a wishful thinker these days. By officially, I mean that this discovery is out of the bag.. to the media and public. I'm not sure if certain factions of Gov.. already know about them or not.. but it's possible.

The Only way they are ever going to get protection, is by someone getting around the people that don't want the public to know .. IF there are these Gov. people in knowledge of such. That's the first obstacle, and a huge one.

Consider the fallout...of a large primate species being discovered right under scientific noses, that is the closest, if not actually .. part human.

I'm certain there would be extended periods of Gov study on the species, in their natural environment.. if the Gov was forced into doing that. Do you really think that this would include you and me and others involved in amateur "research" ? How long would you think these studies and research would need to go on, before the Gov came to Any conclusion on what to protect , and where?

I think, we would be brushed aside in a micro second, and not even be allowed to enter the new areas of study. This might include all of the Huron NF, or all but the private land in the Adirondack Park (for example). That puts.. All, besides the big boys and girls (with all the degrees and connections), Out of the picture.

Would you truly be happy for sasquatch and your own "research" interests, should such a fallout happen, and you are no longer allowed to record, or camp there..in your own areas of interest ? Do you really think for a minute, that this would or could not happen.. should such a creature be "discovered" by science. 

Would this really be better for the creatures (Gov involvement), then just a bunch of confused amateurs out there now..not accomplishing much ?

Consider what Gov and private interests.. sasquatch will be living in the middle of, and the reality of that fallout and the possible results.

Consider,  just how much empty, vast, non accessable public land there is out there in N. America, for these creatures to live and retreat into, if need be.

150 years ago, when one of these things was seen.. there were hunting parties, that went out with guns after it.. and wanted to put it's head on a stick, after shooting it. 

What would they want to do with them...now ?

[hiflier]

Hello imonacan,

 

...What would they want to do with them...now ?

Round them up and place them on a reservation?

[JanV]

Ethical calculus.  Multiple issues, each with its own variables.

 

Until recently I've been on the fence regarding kill, no kill based on the assumption that once the existence of squatch is proven, there will be a period of difficult adjustment followed by long term co-existence.  My quandary was whether or not the taking of a squatch life (I consider them people) is necessary to achieve this outcome.

 

Now, however, with the understanding that Paulides has provided, that there are probably populations of squatch that prey on people, the ethical calculus for me is greatly simplified.  If squatch are preying on people, often young children, then the public needs to be aware of the threat, and the life of a squatch, one that engages in this behavior or not, is a small price to pay to establish public awareness and effective management of the threat.

Hi JDL,

I have read the 411 books. I don't think Paulides made the case that BF were the culprits. Paulides made a lot of errors and faulty assumptions about human behaviors that have been pointed out by SAR experts. I do grant you that the Dennis Martin case was ambiguous but the sighting of the ragged man carrying "something" did not rule out a human.

I question the assumption that BF or certain populations of them prey on humans. . I cannot imagine a behavior more likely to reveal their existence (if indeed they do exist) than to snack on humans.

[NathanFooter]

 If { BIG IF } the official discovery of the species where to make it impossible for me { as of this time a amateur researcher } to do research, so be it.  I do not put my own interests above the protection and study of this species.

 

 Protection laws work, there is evidence from the alligator to chimpanzee to show this.  The best minds on environmental and wildlife status will tell you the same thing.

 

 Being possibly in the human family also would make the push for protection even stronger although more complicated, but the point is we can handle complicated in this area.

 

 There is simply to many people using the forests and state land areas for the government to decide to shut out human operations in these areas. This may have an exception for select areas of acreage that they may choose to do studies on.

 

 What would we do with them now ?   Laws and guidelines would be laid down for those operating in areas where sasquatch live. Anything else gets far to expensive and just plain ridiculous, we would give them the place and ability to live how they are designed to live.

 

 The issues are area shrinkage and human encroachment, these things do not change unless official action is taken.

 

 As long as we affect the area around us we can not throw our hands up and hope that things work out.

[hiflier]

Hello All,

Why would anyone need a Sasquatch to be known in order to protect it's habitat in the first place. Protecting habitat soley for the sake of the habitat itself should be enough IMO. I mean why should it take a Spotted Owl for us to practice good stewardship?

Edited January 1, 2014 by hiflier

[Guest]

LoL, if BF is "discovered" officially, it will be the biggest can of worms you ever saw, it will be a swimming pool full of worms, sorry. The negative implications could be tremendous. Demands that people be 'protected' from the giant cannibals that live in the woods. You don't think BF is going to get off 'easy' do you? All the dark negative stuff will eventually come out, people will freak.

 

Nathan, really, lets go find a body, or a head or something, and find a guy in Japan or China who will buy it for a couple mil. That is the best possible scenario. Under the table, Swiss bank account, live a nice, semi-radioactive free life for a couple decades if we can last that long.

 

Really, been there, done that. This is not a chimp, - all large mammals are under extinction pressure, tigers, great apes, cheetahs, elephants, the Black Rhino just went extinct. Overpopulation has never been dealt with, except in highly industrial rich countries, where we self-control to the point of going extinct ourselves. The only thing they did with alligators was control hunting. There is not enough space for BF already, that is why they are going semi-urban.

 

Thats another $20.00 please. Paypal is ok

[hiflier]

Hello Wag,

If Nathan let's you stay on this thread he's not going to be able to afford the thermal LOL. If he doesn't want to sell the head .....I DO! (Now let me see.....where did I put that head...)

[SWWASAS]

Reasons I get from people who do not want official discovery, and I have heard probably a from almost a dozen who have had regular encounters are: They are capable of survival on their own. The Native American experience is a good example of Government management. In a natural disaster of regional or national proportion they might survive better than we do. We will introduce disease. They don't want them rounded up for study or lab work. Things of that nature.

Of course the same people have gifting trees, let the BF rummage through coolers, and take no special precautions to protect BF from human pathogens or themselves from BF pathogens. Another common thread are such people seem to be anti science. They seem to be content with contact experience and could care less if the rest of us know or learn anything about BF. I am sympathetic but we have no idea about human population pressures on BF habitat. For all we know they might go extinct in 10 or 20 years. I agree that BF might be better capable of surviving a disaster. They do not rely on power grids, food distribution, and other human structures for survival. The forest has all they need.

I urge those that have gifting trees not to provide gifts when you are ill. It might even be good to wear rubber gloves to handle stuff you put out for them. Also from the other standpoint if you handle items you think have been handled by BF, you are at risk of being exposed to dangerous pathogens they might be carrying. Stuff that humans have eliminated from their population with immunizations. Or stuff that BF have a natural immunity to. Polio, TB, Cholera, ecoli, etc come to mind and those diseases may be common in BF populations. Certainly I do not think BF are into hand washing. Be careful folks.

[hiflier]

Hello All,

In looking back in time to Humans arriving in North America including Europeans, Sasquatch could have numbered in the 100's of thousands. I think then that they are already in such decline as to be unsustainable. And protecting habitat or not there may be nothing to prevent them from disappering altogether. If they do indeed exist it will be a sad day as it is when any other creature sees the last of it's kind fade away.....like Lonesome George

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/03/science/death-of-lonesome-george-the-tortoise-gives-extinction-a-face.html?_r=0

[JDL]

JanV,

 

I wasn't basing my comments off of the 411 books, but rather on some of his interviews since they were published.  In part, that is.

 

The other basis of my comments is personal experience being stalked and threatened.

 

To me, Paulides' books are not a direct indictment of bigfoot.  In fact, his first book actually reads as if he edited them before publishing to specifically remove that thesis.  There are several cases in which he seems to be leading up to something, then doesn't simply stop short, but gives the impression that he cut out the conclusion to which he was leading. 

 

I think this was wise on his part.  At the very least, he is able to establish clusters that suggest long term serial homicidal activity in national parks.  This, in and of itself, is newsworthy.  Had he pointed directly to bigfoot, it would actually have diminished the value of the information in the eyes of the general public.

Certainly not all disappearances, or even most that he has documented can be considered to be possibly bigfoot related, but the emerging patterns do require investigation.  This is best achieved by not muddying the water by interjecting bigfoot.