Cotter Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 It makes no difference in physics if you are at the edge or in the middle. A horizontal force is a horizontal force whether you are in the middle or at the edge. When dealing solely with horizontal forces, correct. But as you edge out on the limb, you create a moment about the joint (limb to trunk) which would include downward forces as well. But you move too far out and, as you said, the limb would snap before the trunk. But I wanted to clarify the statement quoted. Edited to add - once the tree gets off its axis, even with horizontal force applied, the weight of the animal would contribute to the downward forces....
See-Te-Cah NC Posted July 9, 2014 Author Posted July 9, 2014 I have to agree with WSA. I have seen a lot of posts that were transparently veiled potshots/snipes at the OP or at a poster directly above them. See you stated that there are no rules on how many questions a person can ask or how many times they post in an individual thread that they do not believe what you are saying. So I can post I do not believe you every 6th, 7th, 8th poster thru a 1000 post thread that I do not believe what is being said and I would not be a TROLL? I have also seen posts that have nothing to do with the subject in the thread and were nothing more than snide/snipy comedy and this from an "official" on this site. You should have reported the 'official" if their comments were out of line. We can't address it adequately if you don't report it. You're free to agree with whoever you'd like. I disagree with him and you. If someone asks a question, and is ignored, then they have a right to continue to ask questions. Asking questions isn't necessarily trolling when no one is providing answers. The OP being uncomfortable with the questioning doesn't mean that those asking are trolls by default.
Drew Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 I disagree with a species such as Oak. Prove it. Sticks at the edge of a tree canopy can withstand less force than a 24" trunk. You want me to prove that?
norseman Posted July 9, 2014 Admin Posted July 9, 2014 Yes. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_alba You may wanna start educating yourself on this species instead of just coloring too.
Drew Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) You are saying I need to prove that the branch labeled by the White Circle will fail at a lower amount of force than the branch at the Red Circle? Really? Edited July 9, 2014 by Drew
WSA Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 S.T.C.N.C. said: "You should have reported the 'official" if their comments were out of line. We can't address it adequately if you don't report it. "You're free to agree with whoever you'd like. I disagree with him and you. If someone asks a question, and is ignored, then they have a right to continue to ask questions. Asking questions isn't necessarily trolling when no one is providing answers. The OP being uncomfortable with the questioning doesn't mean that those asking are trolls by default." You ever heard from your significant other, "It isn't what you said...etc?" Exactly. Those who've posted here frequently are known, and the position they hold on the question is known too. It is not as if these inquiries don't come freighted with a lot of that knowledge. They do, and that is unavoidable. Again, when the purpose of your question is only in pursuit of a zer0-sum outcome of dismissing ANY evidence you've reported as impossible, it is not in the nature of of legitimate scientific inquiry at all, but the pursuit of an agenda. There is whole lot of that going on here, always. If you are telling me you don't appreciate that, or need somebody to point it out to you and others. Well, I'm just a little incredulous of that See. How such so-called questions advance this field of inquiry has always been beyond my grasp, and the grasp of many here. If I was appointed King for a day, the first time somebody admitted here that BF "can't" exist, or is "impossible", they'd be bounced. That kind of closed-mind thinking has done more to hinder discussion than any other single thing, and it helps not in the least. If you are not willing to entertain that there is some evidence, you have no business being here, in my book. If you want to debate the evidence, and submit plausible alternatives, I'm your boy, all day. What we had here, instant, was some framing "questions" about how a tree of this size could be toppled. Bipto knew very well none of those making inquiries has the least shred of belief regarding ANY observations his people have reported. Again, who would want to participate in that? That he was able to do that for so long is only a testament to his stamina and committment to his work.
Rockape Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 <If I was appointed King for a day, the first time somebody admitted here that BF "can't" exist, or is "impossible", they'd be bounced.> Then thank god you don't run things here. 3
WSA Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) The problem with full-on relativism as a management principle is nobody is steering the boat, really. It is benign to the point of being corrosive, in most practical applications. When and if those who are truly interested in exploring the evidence resolve to display the strength of their convictions, this could change and the full potential of this community could be realized. It is episodes like this that convince me that is not going to happen, so another opportunity for real discussion gets shunted to the bottom of the deck, and we are to what? Congratulate ourselves on how open to discussion we are? From those who scoff at the very idea you make the subject of your conversation? It is an approximation of what real discussion is, only. Edited July 10, 2014 by chelefoot GG #7
norseman Posted July 9, 2014 Admin Posted July 9, 2014 You are saying I need to prove that the branch labeled by the White Circle will fail at a lower amount of force than the branch at the Red Circle? Really? Absolutely......but maybe not that spindly one. Maybe that beefier one three up. Or maybe they both broke? Or maybe Bipto was wrong about the health of the bole? Yah I can see that happening.... Leverage Drew it's why you can pour a big pot of water with one hand.
David NC Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Thank you See-Te-cah , I know where the report button is , and I know your answer ahead of time is that everything is looked at fairly here but we all know human nature. We will just have to see how long I last against reporting someone with a higher position and a constituency here. I have never witnessed a cloaked sasquatch but I fear the cloaked trolls more. 1
norseman Posted July 9, 2014 Admin Posted July 9, 2014 <If I was appointed King for a day, the first time somebody admitted here that BF "can't" exist, or is "impossible", they'd be bounced.> Then thank god you don't run things here. Meh...... I'am starting to think it would be good policy.
1980squatch Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 When dealing solely with horizontal forces, correct. But as you edge out on the limb, you create a moment about the joint (limb to trunk) which would include downward forces as well. But you move too far out and, as you said, the limb would snap before the trunk. But I wanted to clarify the statement quoted. Edited to add - once the tree gets off its axis, even with horizontal force applied, the weight of the animal would contribute to the downward forces.... Yes, this is correct if the BF moved out on a limb they would begin to create a lever. It would be the same lever to the branch connection to the tree however, so what is going to break first with the same torque, the branch or the whole trunk! So, the BF would need to hang on to the main trunk and try to sway it off plumb to create a lever that way, in order to keep the break somewhere along the main trunk. Which, if the BF got high enough to sway the tree to a breaking point it will break well up the tree. Which is as described in an earlier event, but they assumed the same happened here- but it is simply impossible.
Incorrigible1 Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Valid questions asked, but not answered. Happens quite frequently, in our chosen interest. 1
norseman Posted July 9, 2014 Admin Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) @ inc Well hopefully Drew will get after it.......after all this is his thread now. Edited July 9, 2014 by norseman
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