Guest Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Bingo. Big chip I'm guessing. Evidence for any of this please, professor...thank you! Yup, lots of study has been done on Neanderthal. None of it says ''Same as modern humans''. No one is really saying that. But some are implying it, and it gets spread into the social atmosphere, as I have already commented on. ------------------------------------------------------- "Ugh, me want food, me want sex, me want ugh. Ugh. Me kill big animal Ugh." If this is a taste of life in the Wag household then I pity Mrs Wag! Oddly, for someone so hell bent in attacking mainstream scientific consensus, the ugh ugh caveman hypothesis is so very very conventional and old hat. Nothing new or even interesting about it. --------------------------------------------------------- Well, how do you Brits say it? "BRILLIANT!" The overall conclusion would be that, although Neanderthals did have the ability to speak, they were capable of articulating only a smaller number of phonemes. Jared Diamond described this limitation using the following example: imagine how many words you could say if the only sounds you were able to make were a, u, c, p. Imagine trying to say "Trinity College is a fine place to work." All you could say were something like "Capupa Cappap up a cap capupap." Ok, so: UGH, SEEEEEEXXXXXXXXX, UUUUGGGGHHH FFFFOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDD, UUUUGGGHHH AAAANNNNGGGGGRRRRRYYYY! Yea, I was a little bit off. Hows them unicorns? Really, I mean, how is the crow? Cause I could keep serving it up, but you gotta be eatin' it bubba. Edited June 13, 2014 by Wag
Guest Stan Norton Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 ^ In all seriousness, I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about. Are you ok?
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) ^ In all seriousness, I have no idea what you are rabbiting on about. Are you ok? No, this is all absurd, going over basic anthropology. And obviously, you have no idea what I'm talking about, because I keep having to go over the same stuff over and over and over. But again, Unicorns, I understand why you are having such a difficult time. You said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Ugh, me want food, me want sex, me want ugh. Ugh. Me kill big animal Ugh." If this is a taste of life in the Wag household then I pity Mrs Wag! Oddly, for someone so hell bent in attacking mainstream scientific consensus, the ugh ugh caveman hypothesis is so very very conventional and old hat. Nothing new or even interesting about it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then I showed where my analogy of neanderthal is actually, correct, according to Jarrod Diamond, Cambridge boy I would bet, or Harvard whatever: I put it in a redish color so you can try to read it, and eat some crow. Jarod Diamond: The overall conclusion would be that, although Neanderthals did have the ability to speak, they were capable of articulating only a smaller number of phonemes. Jared Diamond described this limitation using the following example: imagine how many words you could say if the only sounds you were able to make were a, u, c, p. Imagine trying to say "Trinity College is a fine place to work." All you could say were something like "Capupa Cappap up a cap capupap." Ok, so: UGH, SEEEEEEXXXXXXXXX, UUUUGGGGHHH FFFFOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDD, UUUUGGGHHH AAAANNNNGGGGGRRRRRYYYY! Yea, I was a little bit off. Hows them unicorns? Really, I mean, how is the crow? Cause I could keep serving it up, but you gotta be eatin' it bubba. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So basicly, you made a bold, silly, conspiratorial, ridiculous statement, and I showed how ridiculous it is. Then, you so boldly asked for proof of 'just one thing' and I provided it, but of course, when you have no honor, one ignores the mud-pie in the face as best as one can. But really, I expected nothing less, hows that IQ investigation going? Oh, no need for that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, for those with some ability to grasp higher thought constructs, I would say Jared is WRONG in one part of his statement. Basicly, Neanderthal spoke the way he did, UGHHHGAAAAFOOOOODD, UUGGHHHAAAAASEEEEXXXXX, UGGHHHHAAAAANNGGRYYYY, Not because his poor little vocal chords could only produce a few sounds, but because his MORONIC BRAIN could only interpret basic sounds, that was all he NEEDED. Jarod, harvard boy, IS INCORRECT. Neanderthal WAS A MORON! Thanks Jarod! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is some more basic Neanderthal, for those with higher comprehension skills, say, 6th grade: http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-03/eyes-have-it Anyone stuck with glasses knows the envy of those with killer eyesight. But visual acuity apparently came at a price, at least for Neanderthals. According to a paper published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B this week, Neanderthals' visual acuity in the low-light conditions of northern Europe -- much higher than that of Homo sapiens -- came at the cost of other cognitive skills, such as extended social networks and innovation maintenance. Researchers at Oxford University compared the sizes of the orbital sockets (the holes in the skull where eyeballs go) to the size of the visual cortex (the part of the brain tasked with interpreting visual information) of five diurnal primate species: Humans, Rhesus macaques, marmosets, squirrel monkeys and brown-mantled tamarins. The results were clear: the size (volume) the visual cortex in each of these species is proportional to the size of the orbital sockets (and thus, the scientists inferred, the eyeballs themselves). The scientists then measured the orbital sockets of a number of Neanderthal skulls and of modern humans alive at the same time as the Neanderthals, and deduced what the volume of the visual cortex in those individuals would have been. The researchers found that Neanderthals that lived 25-75K years ago had a much higher proportion of their brains dedicated to visual processing, even when compared with anatomically modern humans living during the same time period. This specialization of their brains, the scientists propose, mean that less neural tissue was left over for higher-order reasoning, problem-solving and creating elaborate social networks. This would limit the Neanderthals' abilities to, for example, trade for resources not endemic to their local habitat, or in times of local scarcity. Additionally, the scientists claim, Neanderthals' ability to develop or learn new technologies could have suffered due to their brains' specialization on visual acuity. The researchers sum up their findings thusly: Whereas [anatomically modern humans] appear to have concentrated neural investment in social adaptations to solve ecological problems, Neanderthals seem to have adopted an alternative strategy that involved enhanced vision coupled with retention of the physical robusticity of H. heidelbergensis, but not superior social cognition. […] While the physical response to high latitude conditions adopted by Neanderthals may have been very effective at first, the social response developed by AMHs seems to have eventually won out in the face of the climatic instability that characterized high-latitude Eurasia at this time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, to EAT CROW: 1. eat crow When you make a mistake and are forced to acknowledge it humbly. (or at all, LOL) I say I'm a great cook. Then you eat my food and it is no good. I sit there and eat crow. Ah, another interesting post, interesting because he is conforming to some basicly held theories, not the unicorn nonsense. Not everyone wants to conform to the moronic perspectives that Neanderthal were anywhere near 'equal' to moderns, nor is there any evidence to suggest they were. http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-neanderthal-problem.html It's very likely these Neanderthals, although able to interbreed with humans, and probably capable of speech, will be on average considerably less intelligent than humans. If I had to guess I would suppose their average adult IQ to be about 70, or -2 SD relative to modern humans. You might wonder how they could have survived for 300k+ years with such modest intelligence, but based on my experiences with 5-10 year old kids I don't think that a sub-adult level of maximum intelligence precludes the ability to form societies and function as hunter-gatherers. (Apes survive with even less cognitive ability.) I just don't think that higher developments (e.g., invention of writing) are likely for such a population. What Homo Sapiens accomplished in 50-100k years far outstrips Neanderthal accomplishments over a much longer period of time. --------- I guess the question is, if there is so much information that Neanderthals were not close to being equal to modern humans, and this is quite obvious, are people who think they are, equal to Neanderthal in intelligence? Does intelligence begin to degrade when when you group-think pop culture dribble? Obviously, pop-culture is not considered the high water mark of any level of intelligence. It is considered flaky and shallow. Edited June 14, 2014 by Wag
georgerm Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 In comparison to modern humans, neanderthals were dumb, moronic brutes with a comparable IQ of around 55-65. They were morons, had twice our strength, short tempers, little abstract thinking ability. As stated before. A primate that can live in the wilds and survive for 2oo,ooo years has a type of practical intelligence that involves stalking animals, fishing, preparing foods, making items, and the list goes on. We should say, they would probably do poorly in school, and would be crushing skulls of those making fun of them. However, once put in the woods, they would be impressive showing tough animal survival and human practical thinking skills dealing with home making, food gathering, defending against animal attacks, and so on. Their math, writing and reading skills were not important for their brains to support which helps determine IQ. We simply don't know their problem solving and logic IQs that directly enables them to survive in their challenging environment and plays a part in their intelligence.
Guest Stan Norton Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0096424 'Neandertals are the best-studied of all extinct hominins, with a rich fossil record sampling hundreds of individuals, roughly dating from between 350,000 and 40,000 years ago. Their distinct fossil remains have been retrieved from Portugal in the west to the Altai area in central Asia in the east and from below the waters of the North Sea in the north to a series of caves in Israel in the south. Having thrived in Eurasia for more than 300,000 years, Neandertals vanished from the record around 40,000 years ago, when modern humans entered Europe. Modern humans are usually seen as superior in a wide range of domains, including weaponry and subsistence strategies, which would have led to the demise of Neandertals. This systematic review of the archaeological records of Neandertals and their modern human contemporaries finds no support for such interpretations, as the Neandertal archaeological record is not different enough to explain the demise in terms of inferiority in archaeologically visible domains. Instead, current genetic data suggest that complex processes of interbreeding and assimilation may have been responsible for the disappearance of the specific Neandertal morphology from the fossil record.' In other words, what the actual evidence demonstrates (in the best-studied of all extinct hominins) is that there is no genetic material or cultural artefact which suggests that Neanderthals were dumb brutes. Quite the very opposite in fact. No time for me to eat crow, still trying to get my head around making a Levallois tool...ugh ugh ugh. Edited June 14, 2014 by Stan Norton
JDL Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 Could you post some images from the archeological record that you feel best represent the most advanced Neanderthals?
Guest Stan Norton Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/images/Levallois_technique.gif This link demonstrates the classic Levallois prepared core technique mastered/perfected by neandertalensis...see Mousterian culture. This type of artefact requires high level thinking, firstly procuring the right material, then imagining the possibilities within, then envisioning the steps needed to get to that idea, then having the dexterity to realise that idea and finally...and slam dunkingly...making a prepared core which you can carry around with you to flake off, at will, any tool as and when you need it. There's one small example of advanced right there. Ugh...
Guest DWA Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 ^^^That's the thinking that put humans in space. With, you know, some refinements and additions for time and experience.
Guest Stan Norton Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) ^^^That's the thinking that put humans in space. With, you know, some refinements and additions for time and experience. Absolutely. The spark is there. Everything else is merely playing around with that spark to produce flames. Getting back to the OP: I don't think sasquatch has the spark... Edited June 14, 2014 by Stan Norton
SWWASAS Posted June 14, 2014 BFF Patron Posted June 14, 2014 (edited) The arguments in this thread have been quite interesting. I hope some scientist in Russia or China has not been following this thread. The only way, other than finding a relic population, to answer these arguments is a Jurassic Park like attempt to recreate the species with genetic splicing and manipulation to recreate the species. It probably could be done at some point in time. Starting with viable human DNA and working backwards. If 20 or 30 percent of European's have Neanderthal DNA that would be the starting point. Many countries do not have the ethics issues our country claims to have. Such a project would be very interesting and might resolve issues voiced in this thread. Edited June 14, 2014 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 The earliest stone toolmaking developed by at least 2.6 million years ago. A Levallois tool is not that much different from a flint spear tip, as brains got larger, tools developed, but its all about the same stuff. NO BIG DEAL Hanging 'equal to modern humans' on a Levallois chunk of flint doesn't fly, nor does anyone say it does! The 'Neanderthal was Human just like Me'' is a ''Trendy-Fad'', Trendy as in personality type, you can google it, and it is leaking into popular anthropology, which is a shame, but we all know, or should, that todays Anthropology is based alot on ignoring differences, and this goes hand in hand with the literal Trendy-Conspiracy to ignore differences, and magnify similarities. I think it is more relevant that Jarrod Diamond confirmed they were relatively dumb brutes, and that all the data from the past is still largely intact, confirming they were dumb brutes, why they were dumb brutes, the physical evidence etc... That being said, some people want to run with the Unicorns, and there is nothing you can do about it. Jarrod just couldn't figure out that poor moronic Neanderthal was not ooging and awwiing in frustration that his vocal chords could not resonate like the modern humans. His brain had the vocal chords it needed, just as HUMANS do not have problems trying to say words that are beyond our vocal chord capacity. See how silly it is when you can't be HONEST? Silly silly silly. Diamond was making a very, very silly argument there, although he did confirm they were moronic brutes that talk like retarded monkeys, so tip of the hat. I think it is a shame that we cannot be honest and talk freely, no we cannot talk freely, about human differences. Jarrod Diamond just made a fool of himself, like, huge clown shoes there Jarrod, but he is in the public eye, and HAS TO BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO UPSET THE TRENDY UNICORN PEOPLE! So hows that IQ research going?
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 In comparison to modern humans, neanderthals were dumb, moronic brutes with a comparable IQ of around 55-65. They were morons, had twice our strength, short tempers, little abstract thinking ability. As stated before. A primate that can live in the wilds and survive for 2oo,ooo years has a type of practical intelligence that involves stalking animals, fishing, preparing foods, making items, and the list goes on. We should say, they would probably do poorly in school, and would be crushing skulls of those making fun of them. However, once put in the woods, they would be impressive showing tough animal survival and human practical thinking skills dealing with home making, food gathering, defending against animal attacks, and so on. Their math, writing and reading skills were not important for their brains to support which helps determine IQ. We simply don't know their problem solving and logic IQs that directly enables them to survive in their challenging environment and plays a part in their intelligence. Yes, we DO know some of their problem solving skill. We do know they needed twice the caloric intake, We DO know their eyes were larger, for better night, low light vision, we do know that they had smaller frontal lobes, we do know that they did not use spear-throwing devices, which gives us a comparative IQ to say, black Africans, who did use spear throwing devices. We do know that the occipital lobe corresponds in size to eyes, and so can calculate many diffferent facets of the brain. We do know that the vocal chords were not elaborate, and they talked like moronic dumb brutes, because .....THEY WERE....(in comparison to modern humans) We do know they were more physical, (and therefore) less mentally developed. We can make logical scientific assumptions given the massive amount of evidence, NON OF WHICH SAYS EQUAL TO MODERN HUMANS! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT, ITS JUST A NEW, TRENDY MEME'. I guarantee that. As it was posted, Neanderthal is the most studied of all human types, there are piles of information out there. The new generation of moronappologists who are schooled in 'groupthink'' and that 'we are all the same'', this moronic generation is the same generation that 'everyone gets a trophy'' generation, 'no score kept'' generation socialized to be...total moronic idiots, and so it is no wonder they are spouting, creeping in with the 'we are all the same'' garbage that is eroding the science.
Guest Posted June 14, 2014 Posted June 14, 2014 As it was posted, Neanderthal is the most studied of all human types, there are piles of information out there. The new generation of moronappologists who are schooled in 'groupthink'' and that 'we are all the same'', this moronic generation is the same generation that 'everyone gets a trophy'' generation, 'no score kept'' generation socialized to be...total moronic idiots, and so it is no wonder they are spouting, creeping in with the 'we are all the same'' garbage that is eroding the science. youth soccer destroying science ok pal
Guest Stan Norton Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Judging by some of the content above, even Ugh the knuckle dragging caveman would be face planting.
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