Hybrid Hypothesis Dead, Done, Stick A Fork In It....

[guyzonthropus]

Perhaps the hybridization was in fact in vitro....hmmmm?

I've heard those giant lemurs were quite fetching as well.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

Chasing Rabbits: Your scenario for plague survivor mutations follows from a presumption that 100% of Europeans were exposed to plague, doesn't it? Although the waves of plague pandemics were devastating, it did not reach a significant percentage of the population. (You know, it is always the ones who break out in pustules that get all the attention!)

 

 

 

It's estimated that 60% of the European population died during the Plague of the Middle Ages. That said, all white Europeans are descended from the survivors (because dead folk can't reproduce).  People who have the CCR5-A32 gene mutation can survive Plague than people who do not. (Note: this doesn't mean they can't get Plague, it means that if they get it, they have a better chance of surviving it than people who don't have the mutation.)  Acting as a form of natural selection, each subsequent wave of Plague killed off the people who did not have the gene mutation.

 

If we were to ignore molecular DNA activities like further mutations, translocation errors, point deletions, etc., then theoretically, nearly 100% of white Europeans in 2016 would carry the CCR5-A32 gene mutation. But reality shows that only 10% of them do. And that's because genetics is not clear cut-neat and tidy.

 

Like I stated, molecular DNA 'errors', such as mutations, are only "bad" or abnormal if they are incompatible with life. If these errors are not, then they are "good". And of the "good" errors, they manifest in 2 ways: either they improve life or they don't improve nor threaten life. And seriously, folks, Science doesn't start looking for these errors unless they are incompatible with life.  A person whose health is within the accepted standard of "healthy" isn't going to be tested and retested to find out why he/she is "healthy"----that's a waste of money and resources per the United States Preventive Services Task Force which governs standard of care medical services in the US. But a person whose health isn't "healthy" will be tested and retested and studied and re-studied.

[WSA]

Not to get too far off-topic ChasingRabbits...and I get what you're saying about the extent of the plague contagion and morbidity rate...my observation was just the fact that those who weathered the plague years, and passed along this gene, they weren't necessarily plague survivors (i.e, contracted the plague and were able to fight it off) The existence of that mutation in their ancestors does not confirm they were ever, actually, exposed to plague. Is that not a true statement?

 

Statistically, it is a compelling case I grant you, but as an hypothesis I believe it does have this inherent vulnerability. For instance, that mutation may serve another adaptive purpose not yet discovered, or it may have existed coincidentally in a remote population that was never exposed to plague, but who inherited the deep end of the gene pool just by dint of being the last ones standing.

[ShadowBorn]

But a person whose health isn't "healthy" will be tested and retested and studied and re-studied.

For what , gene testing? to find the mutations in the genes of the un healthy host with in the DNA. I was watching True superstitions last night and they were talking about this and how mutation can effect the genes with in the DNA. Especially when you mix two different animal or creatures of different species together and how it changes their genes with in their DNA or maybe it is like a switch that gets flipped on. Either way there is a change that takes place with in the DNA of the two different species with different strands with genes that are not the same. This has been proven by science , when they started making ears on mice. Would that not be a mutation with in the DNA of a mouse. So some thing unnatural took place with in our evolutionary tree that created these creatures that change theirs and our DNA at a molecular level. This either changed their gene profile or mutated it all together just like what we did to the mouse with an ear on it's back.  

 

 

 

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/gmb/v28n4/a04v28n4.pdf

 

Now according to this ,it states that CCR5-A32 gene mutation is (HIV) so is Plague (HIV)?

[WSA]

And maybe your genes are not necessarily your destiny after all:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/12/health/people-who-avoided-illness-could-be-key-in-treating-those-who-didnt.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

[southernyahoo]

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35992612

Several of the Y chromosome genes that differ in Neanderthals function as part of the immune system. Three are "minor histocompatibility antigens," or H-Y genes, which resemble ones that transplant surgeons check to make sure that organ donors and organ recipients have similar immune profiles.

Because these Neanderthal genes are on the Y chromosome, they are specific to males.

In theory, a woman's immune system might attack a male foetus carrying Neanderthal versions of these genes. If women consistently miscarried male babies carrying Neanderthal Y chromosomes, that would explain its absence in modern humans.

So far this is just a hypothesis, but the immune systems of modern women are known to sometimes react to male offspring when there's genetic incompatibility.

Prof Bustamante said: "The functional nature of the mutations we found suggests to us that Neanderthal Y chromosome sequences may have played a role in barriers to gene flow, but we need to do experiments to demonstrate this and are working to plan these now."

 

 

We can't have any Neanderthal genes in us without successful reproduction. We are all hybrids with different immunities. There is no fork in the above statements.

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

RE: Neanderthal Y chromosome mutation triggering immune response in non-Neanderthal women. That is as possible as a mutation in non-Neanderthal women that suppresses an autoimmune response to the Neanderthal Y chromosome mutation.

 

Re: Descendants of Plague survivors. In theory, they have inherited the gene that helped their ancestor survive.  So, number-wise, you would expect more than 10% of the current white Europeans to have that gene mutation. It's an interesting phenomenon, imo, because the observed is contrary to the expected.

 

RE: testing a "healthy" person for genetic anomalies. In the real world of 2016 US medical practice, that will not happen. Well, let me qualify: that might happen in a research facility, but not at your family doctor's office. And your family doctor isn't going to tell you "Hmmm, you're healthy. I'll order a genome test for you so we can make sure you don't have any kind of DNA abnormalities."  And I can guarantee you that Medicare/Medicaid, BlueCross BlueShield, United Health Care, Cigna, Aetna, etc. will not pay for any kind of genetic testing if there is no medical reason (read: person is healthy) to do it. 

 

RE: HIv and Plague

 

Some descendants of the Eyam Village Plague do carry a gene mutation that makes them immune to HIV. IIRC, that mutation not only makes them immune, but it enables their immune system to kill the virus. Plague and HIV are two different things. Plague is a bacteria and HIV is a virus. It will be interesting what, if anything, comes from this.

[guyzonthropus]

Chasing Wabbits- that's fascinating! I had never heard of these folks. Strange that an immunity to plague would have any impact on viral invasions..I wonder at what level of their immune system this is occurring, as the antibodies would be quite different I would imagine...are they also persistent/immune to most other pathogens? Are they more susceptible to others? Compelling indeed!

Are researchers utilizing this in producing a viable cure for gene therapy type treatments? I'm surprised this isn't something on the evening news(ok..maybe I missed it...)

[hiflier]

.....So some thing unnatural took place with in our evolutionary tree that created these creatures that change theirs and our DNA at a molecular level...

 

 

These are some of the upheavals in Europe that were going on around 40,000 years ago. In other words, during the last 10-15,000 years of Neanderthal. Check the large long-term cosmic ray superwave bombardment noted in the ice cores with the discovery of the proxy isotopes of beryllium 10, NO3, and other signatures. DNA could have mutated then? Brain power could have been enhanced? Neanderthal could have died off after generations of cancers. It's an interesting study believe me, Ran across it about 5 years ago. 

[ShadowBorn]

Hiflier

 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_cygnus07.htm

 

Would this explain the unexplained cave dwelling? The other thing about Neanderthal is that they were not the smartest species at that time. My theory is that nature selected them to die off and it may as well be a mutation with in their DNA that some how turned on and just killed them off. That the mutation favored us as strange as that sounds but the strands with in our DNA lined up perfectly between the male and the female.

 

Now my question is, will the male Neanderthal pregnate a human female and still give birth to a human baby? or can a human male pregnate a female Neanderthal and the baby be Neanderthal? I mean would not the bond be stronger with in the mother then with in the father with in the DNA strands. Does not the mother dictate the out come of the baby? When they do DNA testing is it not beneficial to test the mothers side rather then the fathers side? Just wondering and very interested with this. It is very fascinating !

 

Chassingrabbits

Thanks for your answer. One can learn a lot on this site if they put the effort and they research for them selves what they do not understand. So thanks.

[guyzonthropus]

A lack of melanin may have resulted in various cancers from cosmic ray exposure, presuming they had lost that in the course of adapting to the higher latitudes...

[southernyahoo]

Shadowborn, this link may help in understanding genetic inheritance and the chromosomes.

 

It works for me.

 

We supposedly don't have any remnants of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA inherited from our mothers and grandmothers either, so there must be some contribution in the X chromosome and certainly the autosomal DNA that is contributed equally from both parents.

 

Play the tutorials in the right side column.

 

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/

[ShadowBorn]

Shadowborn, this link may help in understanding genetic inheritance and the chromosomes.

 

It works for me.

 

We supposedly don't have any remnants of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA inherited from our mothers and grandmothers either, so there must be some contribution in the X chromosome and certainly the autosomal DNA that is contributed equally from both parents.

 

Play the tutorials in the right side column.

 

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/chromosomes/

Southernyahoo

 

Thanks again. So the autosomal DNA  and X chromosomes DNA go hand and hand. They both show how it works to show our family tree and how we might all be related at some junction. Imagine that we are all one family as far as humans go.  

[guyzonthropus]

With the mouse-grown ears I would think they were using rejection inhibitors. Wasn't the ear initially an artificial form that was fleshed out by the mouse bits, or was it grown from seed, so to speak?

Humans do share a surprisingly large percentage of DNA with mice, with most mammals even...if I remember correctly, something like high 80's to low 90's in percentage of mutual DNA relative to that which only we have.

[norseman]

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35992612

Several of the Y chromosome genes that differ in Neanderthals function as part of the immune system. Three are "minor histocompatibility antigens," or H-Y genes, which resemble ones that transplant surgeons check to make sure that organ donors and organ recipients have similar immune profiles.

Because these Neanderthal genes are on the Y chromosome, they are specific to males.

In theory, a woman's immune system might attack a male foetus carrying Neanderthal versions of these genes. If women consistently miscarried male babies carrying Neanderthal Y chromosomes, that would explain its absence in modern humans.

So far this is just a hypothesis, but the immune systems of modern women are known to sometimes react to male offspring when there's genetic incompatibility.

Prof Bustamante said: "The functional nature of the mutations we found suggests to us that Neanderthal Y chromosome sequences may have played a role in barriers to gene flow, but we need to do experiments to demonstrate this and are working to plan these now."

 

We can't have any Neanderthal genes in us without successful reproduction. We are all hybrids with different immunities. There is no fork in the above statements.

Fact:

Neanderthal Y chromosome IS extinct. Thats a huge fork stuck right in the heart.

Again, I never said we not successful in reproducing hybrid females, hence the reason why Europeans and Asians have 2-4% Neanderthal DNA. But without hybrid boys to mate with they were simply absorbed back into the human population.

So the theory that 12000 years ago, mystery ape men mated with human women and produced a third separate species called Sasquatch? Is dead. Without hybrid boys mating to hybrid girls? The hybrid "Sasquatch" girls are going be absorbed back into the human species.

We have mapped the Human genome......where is this mystery ape man DNA from 12000 years ago that should be present with Native Americans?