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hiflier

Where Are The Sasquatches In The OP??

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Huntster
2 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

........No one can prove non existence.     You can believe something does not exist but it is impossible to prove it.........

 

That is a common claim, especially from the skeptic industry. In principle (or ideology/religion), it is correct. However, even with weasel wording of the type government and an increasing number of "scientists" are using, itnis possible to "prove" non-existence.

 

For example, let's look at "Russian collusion". Is it impossible to prove that it doesn't exist? Yes, in principle or ideology, it is impossible to prove non-existence. But in reality, such proof is unnecessary, and there are many ways to defeat the claim. First of all, the burden of proof is actually on them to prove the existence, and they have failed miserably. Secondly, their claim appears to have been a diversion, anyway, and their time is running out. Thirdly, it appears that not only were they themselves clearly guilty of "collusion" with multiple other foreign entities, they were more involved with the Russians than their intended victim (even if unintended and through malfeasance). Eventually, the truth will be revealed, and their final ploy will illustrate not only their ultimate demise, but their desperation as the end neared.

 

So it will be with sasquatchery. The longer those in authority issue denials, even with weasel wording, the more glaring their intent will be both nearing the end (which we may very well be witnessing), and when the truth is finally exposed for all to see.

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SWWASAS

Agreed Huntster!      I think the non response to Hifliers inquiries tells more than some official boiler plate mamby pamby response that does not say anything.    Silence may very well mean that whoever was dealing with an inquiry from the public  had personal knowledge and did not want to disseminate something they knew to be untrue.  

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Huntster
1 hour ago, SWWASAS said:

.........Silence may very well mean that whoever was dealing with an inquiry from the public  had personal knowledge and did not want to disseminate something they knew to be untrue.  

 

Yup, or it just might be that they themselves are growing increasingly uncomfortable with the realization that there is something very convincing about what is going on, and that they are realizing that they are not fulfilling their professional responsibility towards it. 

 

A perfect example of that emotion would be the statement of D.W. Grieve, anatomist at the Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine in 1971 when he studied the PG film:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson–Gimlin_film

 

..........Grieve notes that

his "subjective impressions have oscillated between total acceptance of the Sasquatch based on the grounds that the film would be difficult to fake, to one of irrational rejection based on an emotional response to the possibility that the Sasquatch actually exists. This seems worth stating because others have reacted similarly to the film."[210].........

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ShadowBorn
On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 12:09 PM, NathanFooter said:

I have sat down and talked with many people who claim Woo experiences ( dozens ) and strangely the majority of them are either self important and deceptive or unstable and delusional.  This is not just my perception and conclusion, the majority of friends and family that interact with these individuals often have further evidence that this is true or at the very least agree that they are mentally unwell in some way. This is yet another win on the side of science, this test is repeatable and consistent just as much so as the flesh and blood search results. The only argument left to try and suggest is that this group has not come up with a body and that argument has been put to bed long before this hour and so we still end up right here in the conversation.

Nathan

First I want to really thank you for answering my questions. Your answers were real and thought out and very understood. So thank you. Now to answer about this woo issue . I cannot say that people who have dealt with this issue are self important or even deceptive. I cannot even go as calling them unstable or delusional.  I say this since I my self have experience some thing with these creatures that I sure as heck I cannot explain. I try not to bring up this issue with people unless they bring this issue up them selves. Then I start to listen and hear what they have to say.

 

I can say that most do not want to talk about this until it bothers them. That's when they start to search for others who have experience what they have.. This is not a club that one wants to belong too. It is like what you have said " people who claim Woo experiences ( dozens ) and strangely the majority of them are either self important and deceptive or unstable and delusional ". The question should be asked how were they before the event. Those who have experience these woo experiences were different before encountering these creatures. These experiences are not a one time thing and are usually done over time. We have to understand that these creatures visit people that they have encountered once before. When these woo experiences happen they happen over time and it is not a one time encounter.

 

So when I came out with my encounter of my woo experience on the forum. Well I knew that I was going to catch flak for what I was saying since I had no way of proving it. That is the problem with woo that there is not a way to prove it. There are no equipment that one can use to capture the woo experience. So all a witness has is their word and that is it. But what makes it real is that there are others who have experienced it. What I can say is that this does scare people and sounds crazy. You can even see it in the paranormal section of the forum. The problem is that it gets suppress and even on the BFRO it has been suppress. No one wants to go down that road. Sure I get it and suppression is much easier then to come out and keep going with this Ape theory.

 

If this was such an ape the DNR would not be laughing at us every time we asked them where are the apes that are running around in our forest making these so called nest. I stopped asking the DNR a long time ago about these creatures in the state of Michigan. I stopped asking farmers about the apes that are killing the deer in their fields since I felt like a joke to them. It is not until they started having problems with their horses being attacked but could not explain by what. Even more then that is the postings of missing dogs and even horses which makes it more odd. But this is not my job to figure it out and I am just after the truth.

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Doug

I have experienced woo or something paranormal as in mind speak twice. I would have thought that it was a sort of witchcraft, except for a buddy that was with me at one of those times actually saw a Sasquatch at about the same time I experienced the woo. 

 

Woo is interesting, but, after beginning to pursue it, I have decided to leave well enough alone. Too spooky for me.

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ShadowBorn

Doug

Thank you. For coming on this forum and at admitting that you have experience this so called Woo.  You can bet that I understand about leaving that stuff well alone. It gets way to spooky when you are dealing with unknowns. What does it for me is that there is no way of proving it since it is so personal when it happens. A lot of researchers that it have never had it happen to them do not understand this aspect of these creatures. So thank you for confirming what others have as well. It takes a lot of b*ll's  to come out on a public forum and admit that they have experienced this Woo phenomena. 

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Explorer

Thanks for your reply, Nathan.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 9:46 PM, NathanFooter said:

  You are correct, I should have defined what Woo encompasses in relation to my post.  The types of experiences that I define as Woo include telepathy, portal hopping, invisibility and anything else associated with spiritual events.  

 

I personally don't like using the word woo because what is considered woo is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. 

 

One definition of woo is:  "the way a person is when they uncritically believe unsubstantiated or unfounded ideas".

This is so general that it could cover all BF topics including the claim that BF is a real creature.

 

Another definition of woo is:  "a person readily accepting supernatural, paranormal, occult, or pseudoscientific phenomena, or emotion-based beliefs and explanations".

This is a narrower definition, but still some scientists will consider the BF claim a pseudoscientific phenomena.

 

I think it is better to do what you did, define the term as you see it so that others understand where you are coming from.

 

 

On 2/14/2019 at 9:46 PM, NathanFooter said:

 The suggestion of Infra-sound and bio-luminescence do not classify as Woo as they are illustrated in biology. 

 

Claims of infra-sound (what some people call zapping) and red glowing eyes (you call it bio-luminescense but there is no evidence that that is the source of BFs glowing eyes) can be considered woo because those attributes are not present in any of the existing great apes/hominids and belief in them is pseudoscientific.

 

It could be real, but I don't know.   

However, I consider these 2 attributes to be out there (maybe not woo but extraordinary claims for an undiscovered ape).

 

 

On 2/14/2019 at 9:46 PM, NathanFooter said:

  I know Joe Beelart personally and I have chatted with Keith Beardmen on several occasions,  I don't believe either of them to be dishonest or totally off their rocker but I do not have confidence that they are in fact encountering Sasquatch in such events.

 

 

This is an alternative hypothesis that has been proposed also by others in this forum: i.e. that there is(are) other entities or trickster agents that want you to believe they are BFs. 

Supposedly, these entities have their own unknown agenda and are using the BF idea to trick the witness into a certain belief structure.

This introduces even more complexity into the BF world and escalates the number of hypotheses required to explain all the experiences reported.

I understand why it is easier to label the witnesses mentally unstable, rather than go down the rabbit hole into other possible explanations for the paranormal experiences associated with BF.

Or we can do what BFRO does, ignore all the weird stories that don't fit the preferred hypothesis of an undiscovered ape/hominid; this strategy is a least grounded in non-paranormal beliefs.

 

Just like generic BF reports, we only need one report to be true.

So if not all extraordinary claims are false, then there is a signal in the noise.

 

My position on this topic is to listen to the witness tell everything they experienced and not to filter.

Let them explain their observations/experiences (before asking for their conclusions).

Then ask ask them how and why they arrived at their conclusions/opinions (if any).

If the claims are extraordinary and cannot be substantiated, then I just put the file in the gray basket.

 

Until Norseman, NAWAC, or others bring the specimen, much of this topic is pure speculation based on anecdotal evidence.

 

19 hours ago, ShadowBorn said:

So when I came out with my encounter of my woo experience on the forum. Well I knew that I was going to catch flak for what I was saying since I had no way of proving it. That is the problem with woo that there is not a way to prove it. There are no equipment that one can use to capture the woo experience. So all a witness has is their word and that is it. But what makes it real is that there are others who have experienced it. What I can say is that this does scare people and sounds crazy. You can even see it in the paranormal section of the forum. The problem is that it gets suppress and even on the BFRO it has been suppress. No one wants to go down that road. Sure I get it and suppression is much easier then to come out and keep going with this Ape theory.

 

 

Your experiences might very well be true but you are correct in that you will never be able to prove that you are receiving telepathic messages from a BF.

How do you know the messages are coming from BF and not from another entity or from your own mind?

If you believe that BF emits infra-sound, could infra-sound be creating sounds or images in your brain?

Have you ever gotten useful actionable information or just gibberish?

 

I understand why BFRO ignores these claims; you cannot investigate them and researching them are not fruitful.

 

BTW, there are subgroups of BF researchers who have totally bought into the idea of telepathic communication with BF and get together every year to discuss their findings.

See link below.

 

http://www.ghostsofrubyridge.com/sas-conf-19/?fbclid=IwAR0uBSaom5_oPLVfP-3SSm04t7G0ANK-T2GpBJFy-hQJIGEy5eVB0GXB3lM

 

I have never attended any of these conferences but will like to meet some these people and understand where they are coming from and why they believe what they believe.

The BF community is already a small and strange group in the US and this group is an even smaller and more eccentric sub-group (but still part of bigfootdom; whether we like it or not).

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SWWASAS

Nice post explorer.      I tend to define woo as something not observed anyplace in Nature.    Portals, in and out of our dimension,  that kind of thing.     However science claims wormholes could exist but would take great energies and equipment not invented,   and sub atomic particles do a lot of strange things with existence or change of state so even that is not a good definition.        Notice I have don't mention mind speak but probably should include that into woo.   However over half of the worlds population believes in some sort of religion and usually that  belief includes visions or voices in the head of their prophets.      So why is mind speak any harder to believe than that for most of the population and us bigfooters?    So personally I sit back and listen to those who report things.   I guess so if it ever happens to me that at least I know what I have experienced.      My one Woo event was something recorded on my ever running field digital audio recorder that I did not hear with my ears.   That has defied any explanation on my part.   It was loud and left little to imagining since it was well above background noise levels.   That is the inverse of mind speak, recorded but not heard or played in my head.  

 

Some of the speakers at the Ghost of Ruby Ridge conference make me very uncomfortable.    I have heard most of them more than once.    You will get a big dose of stuff that is hard to believe from many of them and walk away wondering that if that really happens like you say,   why don't you have any pictures to show us?   

Edited by SWWASAS

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Huntster

I consider the word "woo" with regard to beliefs to be equivalent to the "N" word in terms of race. I came to hate the word after debating with skeptics on the JREF forum for several years. The person using the word at me face to face might get unexpectedly knocked out.

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SWWASAS

Note to self!    Don't use the word "Woo" around Huntster!  :no:

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Huntster

Oh, I don't mind the word used to describe others. Just don't call my beliefs woo. I'll return the respect.

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NathanFooter
15 minutes ago, Explorer said:

This is an alternative hypothesis that has been proposed also by others in this forum: i.e. that there is(are) other entities or trickster agents that want you to believe they are BFs. 

Supposedly, these entities have their own unknown agenda and are using the BF idea to trick the witness into a certain belief structure.

This introduces even more complexity into the BF world and escalates the number of hypotheses required to explain all the experiences reported.

 

 I don't believe that it makes the Bigfoot issue more complex, it does however make the bigger questions in life more complex. 

 

1 hour ago, Explorer said:

Just like generic BF reports, we only need one report to be true.

So if not all extraordinary claims are false, then there is a signal in the noise.

 

My position on this topic is to listen to the witness tell everything they experienced and not to filter.

Let them explain their observations/experiences (before asking for their conclusions).

Then ask ask them how and why they arrived at their conclusions/opinions (if any).

If the claims are extraordinary and cannot be substantiated, then I just put the file in the gray basket.

 

 History shows that Sasquatch make mistakes as they are spotted running across a road, getting jumped by hunters driving deer and caught invading camps of people carrying firearms.  If these things did indeed posses these powers we would not have these report events ( mistakes ) happening, risk evaluation should be the highest priority for something that can read minds and turn invisible but this is not the case according to the record. 

 

 Every claim has to be challenged and the answers need to fall stone to stone against known facts or at the very least the body of data. The supernatural claims have to at least fall inline with the majority of information but we can see that this is not the case, one side calls out the other.

 

 This is clear on at least 2 levels of examination.

  1. The ordinary reports indicate lapses in judgement/execution and the supernatural indicate  telepathy, invisibility and some degree of greater knowledge.  <- Conflict of data.
  2. Supernatural abilities are not present in nature but perception and mental stability are both wide ranging and can change rapidly under stress.   <- Argument for biology VS argument for psychology. 

 We absolutely need to examine all claims even if they are highly unlikely. I have sat down and interviewed with dozens of folks that hold a supernatural belief in regard to Sasquatch and I learned something valuable in every single case.  The most common thing I come away with is that one side of the argument has physical evidence or consequence and that the other takes pictures of the forest hoping to find Sasquatch hiding in the shadows of the  picture. 

 

 Who is making headway and who has more to show for it, results are everything in any pursuit. If you need to dig a hole to get to the bottom of something and you are far better off digging with a real shovel than you are with an imaginary one. 

 

2 hours ago, Explorer said:

I have never attended any of these conferences but will like to meet some these people and understand where they are coming from

 

  I think you should, I have gotten in the middle of a few of these groups before and I can say it was an eye opening experience. 

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MIB
3 hours ago, Explorer said:

Claims of infra-sound (what some people call zapping)

 

I have experienced infrasound.   I would not at all call it "zapping".   A friend from Nor Cal has described being "zapped" in detail and it was an incredibly unpleasant, experience ... very much akin to being tazed with a police tazer.   What I experienced was a numbness or detachment which was not apparent in the moment, it only became apparent when I was reflecting on what I'd done a day or two later and though it seemed fine at the moment, it absolutely was not "me-like".   

 

I find it important to be very clear that infrasound as I experienced it is not zapping, not even close.

 

FWIW, I think NathanFooter's description / definition regarding woo is very very close to mine.   The one additional thing I tentatively add is the night vision because though night vision occurs in nature, it is not known to occur to anywhere near the same degree in higher primates.   Again, not even close to what I experienced.

 

MIB

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ShadowBorn
1 hour ago, SWWASAS said:

Note to self!    Don't use the word "Woo" around Huntster!  :no:

I agree If I ever meet Huntster in any of these Bigfoot conferences I will never use the word "Woo" . Might not be good for my well being.

 

1 hour ago, NathanFooter said:

Every claim has to be challenged and the answers need to fall stone to stone against known facts or at the very least the body of data. The supernatural claims have to at least fall inline with the majority of information but we can see that this is not the case, one side calls out the other.

Nathan

There is one thing that always remains true about these Woo claims including my own claim and that is the physical evidence that they leave behind. When you find that type of evidence it is very hard to deny what had just occurred.  It is placing the two together that makes it difficult.

4 hours ago, Explorer said:

Your experiences might very well be true but you are correct in that you will never be able to prove that you are receiving telepathic messages from a BF.

How do you know the messages are coming from BF and not from another entity or from your own mind?

If you believe that BF emits infra-sound, could infra-sound be creating sounds or images in your brain?

Have you ever gotten useful actionable information or just gibberish?

 

I understand why BFRO ignores these claims; you cannot investigate them and researching them are not fruitful.

 

BTW, there are subgroups of BF researchers who have totally bought into the idea of telepathic communication with BF and get together every year to discuss their findings.

See link below.

 

http://www.ghostsofrubyridge.com/sas-conf-19/?fbclid=IwAR0uBSaom5_oPLVfP-3SSm04t7G0ANK-T2GpBJFy-hQJIGEy5eVB0GXB3lM

 

I have never attended any of these conferences but will like to meet some these people and understand where they are coming from and why they believe what they believe.

The BF community is already a small and strange group in the US and this group is an even smaller and more eccentric sub-group (but still part of bigfootdom; whether we like it or not).

Explorer

This is some thing that I can not understand and the day that I found out that they were capable of just reading my thoughts it freaked me out. I had no bait to bring those deer to my stand and at the time I was bored and thought I would try. Try to see if these things could read my thoughts.  Infra sound does not do that and I have had infra sound done on me in this area by them. I was ill for a week and barely made it out of the woods. The only thing I heard at that time was a low grunt and that is all it took to make me feel sick. As far as useful information I have never received while in the woods and have always been by dreams.

 

That is right why the BFRO ignores these claims  because they are not fruitful. Still they should investigate them since they can gain knowledge about these creatures. Set up a special team just to investigate these claims so that they can be properly hunted. This way they can rule out what is true. If there are people out there that are dealing with this and they have no understanding why then they need people who can explain why. This some thing that is not easy to cope with after dealing with such a strange event. It only seems best that there should be a task force or a team who can  understand these creatures and deal with those who have no idea.

 

Now I am going to check out that web site since it does seem very interesting . So thanks for pointing that out to me. I might even like to go to the event and check it out in person. So thank you.  

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SWWASAS

The frequencies of infra sound I detected according to University testing in the UK produce widely different effects in humans.    It also depended on the human as far as size and body mass.    The military has played with it and it seems to be a weapon very similar to poison gas in that it is indiscriminate and effects both friendlies and enemies in the same area.   Not something the military likes.    Most likely every BF capable of producing it,  and I doubt all can,  have their own techniques to administer it.      In my case it ramped up from the lowest frequency to the highest detected then fell off to a lower frequency again.   .    I felt nothing electric but had the extreme fear onset, my guts and some contents of my pack were vibrating,  and I got some pain on the left side of my abdomen.    No visual disturbance noted.        The BF seemed to be using a fire for effect technique somewhat like a singer trying to find the right note by sliding up and down the scale.     Perhaps only adult males are capable of it.    Perhaps it was an older juvenile trying it out on a human for the first time.    Who knows.   I asked it to stop and it did.  Not sure if that was coincidence or it figuring that it's attempt at scaring me was not working very well, so it stopped.  

 

As an aside I have seen many come and go to this forum.      Believers that hope to find something to help them have contact,   people that are determined to get the gold ring of proof by shooting a BF,   and skeptics who try to persuade all, even those who have witnessed one, that BF cannot exist.     Most are never successful.    Many loose interest and slip away.    Proof is hard to get but anyone having contact, even unseen contact, can amass behavior data.    Write stuff down.  Report it here.     While it may not be significant at this time and place,   behavior data will become very important when science accepts existence.      That can be a simple as I did this and the BF did that.   The atmosphere here is as friendly as I have seen it.    You can say most anything without being pelted with verbal tomatoes.    Please share and please respect each other even if you disagree with them.     Hell,   I have not been suspended for a long time now so I am learning to get along too.    A good atmosphere here keeps people around as members and furthers what we know.   Kick in for prime membership and help pay the bills.  

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