The case for Homo Erectus

[norseman]

25 minutes ago, NatFoot said:

Wheres that picture from and what is it supposed to be?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Loys's_ape

[Willystyle]

25 minutes ago, NatFoot said:

 

Wheres that picture from and what is it supposed to be?

 

It was an ape man reported from S. America which actually turned out to be a dead Spider Monkey propped up against a log.

[norseman]

21 minutes ago, hiflier said:

It's a photo of Jacko: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacko_hoax

 

No. See link.

[Incorrigible1]

1 hour ago, NatFoot said:

Wheres that picture from and what is it supposed to be?

The De Loy's ape. From wiki:

De Loys's ape, given the proposed scientific name Ameranthropoides loysi, was an alleged large primate reported by Swiss geological explorer François de Loys in South America. The only evidence for the animal besides de Loys' testimony is one photograph. It was promoted by George Montandon [fr] as a previously unknown species, but is now usually considered a misidentification of a spider monkey species or a hoax.^[1]

[SWWASAS]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:50 PM, Willystyle said:

My only point was that Bigfoot may have used fire in the past with a more regular frequency but has probably only regressed away from that in recent years as a means of better concealing itself from modern Homo sapiens.

If you look at the FIrst Peoples experience with fire it was always a dead giveaway of the presence of a  raiding party in someone else's territory.   Smoke in the daytime and light at night is visible for miles.   So raiding parties would avoid making fire and putting out light and smoke to indicate their presence.    BF may have figured that out over time and either rarely make fire in isolated areas or given up on it all together.    The other factor not in their favor is that BF seem incapable of complex construction.     Using fire frequently,  means you have to know how to make it.  Bow drills are the easiest way but hand twirling can be done but that  is harder to make enough friction to ignite wood.   That may be more construction than they are capable of imagining or copying.     Flint is common in many areas but that requires steel to make a spark.  Unless stolen from humans it is very unlikely for BF to have steel.   .Given their dedication to avoid human contact, it may have just become easier for BF to avoid use of fire if they ever used it at all.    Certainly in modern times smoke coming out of the woods where it shouldn't be,   is certainly likely to get the attention of the forest service or private land owners.    If cooking is not required for their digestive systems and they have enough fur to keep warm, then there is little reason for them to make fire in most climates.    

[hiflier]

Even if all that were true, especially in a remote area there would be no fire ring made of rocks or anything else so......wildfires started by BF's? If fire was in their tool box not all of them would be careful on a windy day to know NOT to make a fire, or in high fire danger drought conditions. Or to keep warm in winter when the smoke could be seen even from further away than in other seasons. I just don't think it happens. Eating raw meat alone might keep their brains at the level where fire making isn't even an epiphany of sorts. For all I know a wildfire to a BF's, who probably sees Humans ignite, is a majorly aggressive attempt by Humans to kill them off.

[SWWASAS]

You are forgetting that the woods is their environment not ours.    They have a lot more at stake in preventing wild fires than idiot humans do.   Not long ago on this forum, a member (who I will not name) posted a picture of a camp fire in Oregon which has been under no camp fire restrictions since June.   Apparently they did not get the memo.      Assuming humans know more than BF about fire danger, winds, or drought,  might be a stretch.      However most of your points are valid and certainly human caused fires are a big problem for them.    They are a big problem for me lately since I have developed an age related asthma issue that forests fires aggravate.    Little or no current evidence exists that they use fire.    If cooking is not an issue, the months in which they would use fire for heat is very limited.   Most of that period few humans are in the woods to see the smoke which would be scoured out by rain or snow and not visible from very far away.    So if they use fire at all it might be during a very limited few months during the year and simply not seen because of lack of human presence.     If I stumbled on a campfire ring in some isolated place,  and the humans that had the fire were tidy and did not leave food wrappers and bottle caps around,  I would have no idea who made the fire.   I would of course assume humans but how could I know for sure without human artifacts left behind?    I just broke camp yesterday and there was no evidence left behind that I had been there.   

Edited August 10, 2019 by SWWASAS

[hiflier]

33 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

 I just broke camp yesterday and there was no evidence left behind that I had been there.   

 

As it should be. About three years ago I was doing some winter research with a buddy and access to the normal campsites (6 first come first serve) was not even a thought because of the snow. We camped along the road which was dirt/gravel but well maintained and I dug a shallow hole and built a small fire for the evening. When we left there was only ash which I covered with the soil I had dug out previous. Beyond tire tracks and probably footprints one would never know we were there.

 

I think it helps when the next person shows up to think they are in a location that is all there own. Visiting a place that you don't think has been visited before is part of the magic of being out there. I'm sure most here practice leave no trace just like you do SWWASAS and I do think it also helps nature to quicker refill the void after we're gone. I think it helps to not draw attention to such things as well which allows us to continue. It's all good  

Edited August 10, 2019 by hiflier

[SWWASAS]

Well for sure the lack of a wood fire makes less evidence that you were there camping.    I use a propane fire pit for heat.    Don't smell smokey,  reduces respiratory issues for me,  and less fire hazard.    I like the ambience of a wood fire but the smoke is very bad for me now.    

 

 As a side note,  and warning to others,    I did a kitchen remodel about 2 years ago.     It involved rebuilding a cabinet to install a new range.      Lots of sanding and filling.   Wore a dust mask but not a good one, and my glasses would fog up when I wore it.   So idiot me, I did some sanding without the mask.     So the combination of sawdust,   Corian counter plastic dust, and my own idiocy, has damaged my lungs and made me very sensitive to dust, smoke etc.    Use a good dust mask when you sand.      The sad part is I have a fresh air respirator that I used to paint my airplane, and I was too lazy to go get it and use it.  It pumps fresh air through a hose to the mask to breath.    How dumb can you get?   

[Willystyle]

Wow, just met with Jeff Meldrum and Cliff Barackman at a conference in Munising. Really muddied the water for me on what to believe. I’ve always tried to approach this thing from a scientific perspective and what we have evidence of and based on the Lake Chapala brow ridge, evolutionary timelines, the scant dna samples, etc. the most likely explanation for me was always something very similar to us like a Homo erectus. Barackman is absolutely convinced these things are NOT human (neither homo sapien, caveman, nor hybrid) but rather some sort of ape and Meldrum is still really pushing hard for a Gigantopethicus or Paranthropus explanation. He bases his assertion on the mid tarsal break of the foot, limb proportions, shape of the skull, and facial proportions. Neither wanted to talk at all about the DNA being so close to humans but both seemed like highly intelligent people who were each very well versed on the hominid A&P side of the house. I guess the only thing I felt certain of walking out of that conference was that we’re really not going to have any answers one way until a body is recovered and handed directly over to Science. 

[hiflier]

15 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

Neither wanted to talk at all about the DNA being so close to humans

 

I find that odd and almost unacceptable. Especially in light that suspected BF DNA comes back Human.

 

15 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

Barackman is absolutely convinced these things are NOT human (neither homo sapien, caveman, nor hybrid) but rather some sort of ape and Meldrum is still really pushing hard for a Gigantopethicus or Paranthropus explanation.

 

It doesn't surprise me. I don't think they want discovery to happen otherwise they would stop at nothing to make it happen. Sure, that's a purist viewpoint But I weigh a lot of people and things on that viewpoint. Why? Because I think folks are too laid back on the biggest discovery science/zoology will ever have. EVER. So people's and academia's approach and attitude is something I just don't understand.

 

15 minutes ago, Willystyle said:

....we’re really not going to have any answers one way until a body is recovered and handed directly over to Science. 

 

I STILL wouldn't hand it over to Dr. Meldrum. And after what you just summarized? I DEFINITELY wouldn't hand a specimen over to him. What are they even DOING at a conference when time and money is so much is at stake? I don't get that.

 

I don't need their tin badges- I want someone with a Silver Star!

 

Thank you, Wyllystyle, for bring in your take on things.

Edited August 10, 2019 by hiflier

[SWWASAS]

Willy .you are well advised to hold your opinion for more data.   Well Meldrum at best has had a night fleeting glimpse of BF with Todd Standing in camp but suspiciously not there to witness the encounter.     Cliff,   unless he has had one since I last talked to him several years ago,   has not had an encounter.   That could have changed in the intervening years.     When they are pinning BF on being an ape,  how can either explain the Sierra Sounds that an expert on linguistics has labeled language.,   other witness reports of Samrai Chatter, and my personal experience hearing an Asian child talking before an encounter.   Reports in Florida are that swamp apes use some Spanish words.    Last I heard apes do not have a spoken language.    You have to use all the data when you pick a theory, not just pick and choose what matches your theory.     

 

Meldrum is hung up on size and lack of cultural artifacts.      Cliff, is very into knocking and howls, and not wondering why they seem to evaporate when he does them.   Both have chosen ape as their creature of choice for their own reasons.    

Edited August 10, 2019 by SWWASAS

[hiflier]

20 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

Willy .you are well advised to hold your opinion for more data

 

Something we should ALL be well advised to do? And I include myself in that. And I think to that end every resource that this Forum has should be brought to bear on the issue of discovery including putting more pressure on academia and science in general sinc most here seem to fear government agencies enough to not bother them with making them tell the truth. What other avenues besides chasing our own tails out in the woods are there? I mean it's not like we have no data or evidence to present.

 

I wouldn't think insisting that people in academia or Science LOOK at that data would be anything outlandish. It just won't happen without us pursuing what amounts to the only avenues we have to the only people who could do anything about it. Emails don't work, it's going to take cold face-to-face walk-ins to open those doors. And the way I see it, there's nothing to lose by doing so. And everything to gain. I tried it but, as someone said, I'm just a random person so nothing will come of it.

 

Just pick an institution (there are hundreds to choose from) and find someone who will talk to us.

Edited August 10, 2019 by hiflier

[Willystyle]

Yes the language does seem to be far too advanced for an ape. I guess I thought maybe Meldrum’s viewpoints were beginning to evolve a little bit. After all, a few years ago he was firm on the giganto hypothesis now he’s at least giving consideration to other hominins such as Paranthropus. Am I wrong though in that he was the one who said that dna recovered from Snelgrove Lake and (more recently) suspected Bigfoot nesting sites was almost identical to Homo sapiens?? I knew not many credible researchers had given much credence to Ketchum’s findings with some of the ridiculous public statements that she’s made couple with the poor quality of her paper but at the same time, nobody else has really been able to find anything too significantly different from her results either. Meldrum actually spent more time talking about the similarities between Sasquatch sightings and Black & Brown Bears than he did anything else. I still have much respect for both he and Barackman as they’ve each performed countless expeditions into the field and have cast hundreds of seemingly legit footprints. I guess I just thought Science was much closer to solving this whole mystery though than what is actually the case.

[Willystyle]

32 minutes ago, SWWASAS said:

Well Meldrum at best has had a night fleeting glimpse of BF with Todd Standing in camp but suspiciously not there to witness the encounter.     Cliff,   unless he has had one since I last talked to him several years ago,   has not had an encounter.

No this has changed very little. Both claimed to have rocks thrown at them and Meldrum also talked about his pack being rummaged through on the trip where he set the Skookum cast. I was very impressed with Standings movie but after listening to some of the live sessions he’s done on YouTube I’m convinced that the more the guy talks the more unbelievable his stories become. He becomes even less convincing when you email him one on one with questions. I won’t call anyone a liar until I’ve been able to accompany them in the field but again, I have to agree that holding all major opinions until either a body is obtained or a full dna profile is completed may the best way to go for the foreseeable future.