The Ketchum Report

[Guest RioBravo]

When the Feds think the general pubic can accept the fact the animals exist without alarming them, the Feds will provide the necessary proof of their existence. That will be a have-to case. I seriously doubt the government will every disclose at the same the existence of ALL the types of wild primates that this country contains. (Even those who have spent millions to capture a "Bigfoot" didn't even know of the others until they "collected" three specimens of Skunk (Swamp) Apes. They were told, didn't believe it, -------until they got the DNA back recently.)

Interesting!

What does the government think the public will find most alarming about their existence?

How many types of wild primates do you think there are across the country? Three? Four?

What's the nature of the Skunk Ape specimens? You don't mean three intact bodies?

Are the Skunk Ape specimens included in the Ketchum study?

Thanks ahead of time.

[Incorrigible1]

Luckily, tin foil is relatively inexpensive. Your mileage may vary.

[Guest]

I can’t say your response is in anyway shocking, because it was predictable and really proves who is applying logical fallacy here. I have little doubt that Meldrum himself would readily admit that he has no appreciable level of expertise when it comes to latent print examination or dermatoglyphics because to put it as bluntly as possible, he doesn’t.

Oh spare me...you are seriously positing that a man who has spent untold hours examining both the feet and tracks of primates knows nothing about primate dermatoglyphics? He may not be a court-certified fingerprint examiner specialized in human fingerprints (such as Chilcutt), but he should very well know what characteristics in general to look for in such dermals.

Latent print examination is a very specialized skill set that in reality, is only possessed by an extremely small portion of the population who train to acquire that expertise. Yet you’re assigning Meldrum a relevant level of expertise in a very specialized field in which he has no formal study or training, and no work experience.

Except for those many many hours studying primate feet and tracks, you mean...

A level by your own words that is only slightly below Chillcutt.

In a dispute between the two on fine details, I would rate Chillcutt higher, yes, because he has more specific experience in that exact field.

That doesn't mean Meldrum is in any way ignorant of such things.

The “expert via association†rationale that several others (not you) are clearly attempting to apply here in this thread, is also fatally flawed and is clearly driven by the bias that Saskeptic points out: Meldrum makes public statements that are supportive of pet belief systems and thus he’s afforded levels of expertise that he clearly doesn’t possess so that his assigned, but completely fallacious expertise can be appealed to as a figure of unquestionable authority. It's rather sad IMO.

Yes, it's rather sad Skeptics continue to obfuscate the issue to deny credibility to experts like Dr Meldrum within the area of their training and experience.

The fact is that Meldrum originally stated that the apparent “ridge structure†on CA-19 were indeed the latent print evidence of an unknown bipedal primate. He later admitted he was wrong about that, and referred to Matt Crowley’s exercises in generating casting artifacts initially as a “slam dunk†or words to that effect, on what it is we’re really seeing on CA-19. Even though he’s clearly backed off of a position so adamant, reading what he has to say in LMS, he’s no longer touting what is visible in CA-19 as dermal ridges.

In other words, he is willing to change or modify his position based on evidence...isn't that what we WANT from objective scientists? And doesn't it put paid to your assertion that he only says things that "support our [proponent's] pet theories?

You want proof that Meldrum can be wrong in his interpretation of impression evidence that involves ridge structure? There it is. By his own admission.

On that one cast only.

Let’s not pretend that Meldrum (or anyone else for that matter) is an “expert†in specialized fields of study that in reality, they have no expertise in.

Since no one I know of is doing that, your statement is irrelevant.

And let’s not pretend that Doc Meldrum can’t be wrong about any of his apparent conclusions.

No one has said that, least of all Dr Meldrum.

He’s been wrong in the past, and has admitted so on various occasions. His opinions in regards to anything “bigfoot†should certainly be considered regardless of whether that opinion has anything to do with his field of study. But on the strength of how well he supports those opinions and theories, not on mere hero worship.

And the army of strawmen just gets bigger. "Once wrong, always wrong"? Is that the broad brush we've come to?

The fact is, if any individual (Meldrum or otherwise) has any relevant expertise pertaining to the subject being discussed, that expertise is always conveyed in the strength of their arguments via their own words. It does not need to be championed constantly and waved madly like a display flag as you seem to feel it does. This constant fallacious appeal to authority that happens time and again on this forum and is what I feel Saskeptic is referring to.

Not an entirely unexpected counter-attack. Accuse the one who exposes your fallacies of doing exactly what you are doing.

Too bad I'm not falling for it.

[Guest]

You have often come down pretty hard on the Skeptic side in the past, Guy. Nontheless I will concede I made an error and offer apologies. I can't go back and edit the original post at this point, so I'm afraid it's there to stay.

I come down hard on all the evidence. Because it stinks, and we investigators need to do better (including myself). I am not skeptical of Bigfoot. I am skeptical of Bigfooters.

.

.

Yes, it's rather sad Skeptics continue to obfuscate the issue to deny credibility to experts like Dr Meldrum within the area of their training and experience.

I don't doubt Dr. Meldrum's credibility in his field.I doubt ANYONE who claims (or others claim) are an expert in Bigfoot. There simply are no experts on Bigfoot.

[Guest]

And sells them, don't forget.

Greg Long sells books, as does Dajeeling...is their credibility also suspect because of it?

I come down hard on all the evidence. Because it stinks

I'd say that the current evidence (reports, forensically typed hairs, tracks with identifiable biometric indicators that conform to the distribution pattern of an actual population of animals, etc) is about as far from "stinks" as you can get. Is it a "slab monkey"? No, but it's a heck of a lot more than nothing.

I don't doubt Dr. Meldrum's credibility in his field.I doubt ANYONE who claims (or others claim) are an expert in Bigfoot. There simply are no experts on Bigfoot.

So, primate anthropologists are experts in primate anthropology...except when it comes to examining BF evidence? Experts in dermatoglyphics who routinely testify in criminal cases are likewise experts in their field...unless the dermals are thought to be those of BF? Forensic hair examiners can tell you a hair is from a cat or a dog or a goat and be perfectly credible, but if they tell you it's from a primate not matching any on record, they're unreliable?

Then they know nothing?

Special pleading...classic example.

[AaronD]

Good points Mulder, very good points; however, I think where the skepticism arises from is the premise that we don't KNOW BF is real....yet. And by this I mean simply that there is no slam dunk evidence that silences any and every skeptic alive (e.g., a body dead or alive), not to impugn the testimonials of eye witnesses, footprints, etc etc.....but these simply don't convince everyone. But I am willing to go along with the notion that the government knows a bit more than we're allowed to, how could they not? We have the technology to read the date on a dime laying on a forest floor from a satellite in space, yes?

[Guest]

Greg Long sells books, as does Dajeeling...is their credibility also suspect because of it?

It is not the book selling that hurts Meldrums credibility.

I don't really fault Meldrum if he wants to sell stuff when he is at bigfoot conferences, but at least let someone else sit behind the table and do it for him. In my opinion, and evidently in a lot of others opinion in the bigfoot community, it doesn't make him look very Academic and Doctorly.

When I met him at a conference, I had just walked up to his table and he was engaged with a couple of other people in conversation. He wasn't talking bigfoot to them, he was trying to sell them plaster casts. To be fair, I am sure he was trying to sell the casts to them after he had already talked to them about bigfoot, however, to the casual observer, it looked like he was hawking bigfoot foot casts.

When I had a chance to speak with him, I didn't bring up buying casts from him and neither did he.

[Guest]

So, primate anthropologists are experts in primate anthropology...except when it comes to examining BF evidence? Experts in dermatoglyphics who routinely testify in criminal cases are likewise experts in their field...unless the dermals are thought to be those of BF? Forensic hair examiners can tell you a hair is from a cat or a dog or a goat and be perfectly credible, but if they tell you it's from a primate not matching any on record, they're unreliable?

Then they know nothing?

Special pleading...classic example.

How do you know if these scientist and forensic experts are really examining Bigfoot evidence? Did you see what made these prints? Educated guesses are still guesses. Unknowns are Unknowns.

[Guest]

Re: the JREF million dollar challenge. Bigfoot is not a paranormal claim and therefore does not fall under the purview of the challenge: "At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."

[JDL]

Bigfoot's preternatural.

Edited June 22, 2012 by JDL

[Guest]

Bigfoot is not a paranormal claim

That depends on who you ask.

[Branco]

Interesting!

What does the government think the public will find most alarming about their existence?

Seeing one for themselves I suppose.

How many types of wild primates do you think there are across the country? Three? Four?

Or more.

What's the nature of the Skunk Ape specimens? You don't mean three intact bodies?

One dead for sure, two more trapped, transported a few hundred miles and reportedly released in either SE OK, NW LA, or SW AR.

Are the Skunk Ape specimens included in the Ketchum study?

Possible, but not likely. The "collectors" have their own biologists on retainer; don't have a clue as to what lab did the DNA.

Thanks ahead of time.

[Guest Darrell]

I think all the elite academics, and some not very academic, have an agenda with the bigfoot phenomina. That agenda is MONEY. Long, Dajeeling, Meldrum, Green, Byrne, all wrote books to make money. I dont think for a minute Meldrum wrote LMS with a pure scientific motivaion to bring the wonderfull forest people to our attention. He wrote it to make money and get some fame. Of course that is only my opinion. And I think Long and the others were just as motivated to make a buck. That doesnt mean all their evidense is wrong or mis-stated. I think Meldrum has accomplished more academiclly than most of us ever will and yes, his opinion matters. I understand he knows a ton about how a monkey can walk. But I cant help feel his opinions are not always objective so as to keep his almost rockstar status amongst proponents. And when he sells books, casts, pics or whatever at conventions, conducts pay to play bigfoot expeditions, and goes all over the country to speak at bigfoot conventions (for which he gets paid for right?) it just gives me a skeptical view on what he puts out. I see a lot of paralells in the bigfoot hierarchy to that of the martial arts. And like JohnCartwright said so well: Im not skeptical of bigfoot, Im skeptical of bigfooters.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Darrell

[Branco]

Luckily, tin foil is relatively inexpensive. Your mileage may vary.

Blissfully done!

[Guest Darrell]

Greg Long sells books, as does Dajeeling...is their credibility also suspect because of it?

I think so. To me thats a valid comment and we should look hard at what motivates their agenda. That goes for both sides of the bigfoot coin. IMO, the major motivation right now in anything bigfoot, pro and con, is MONEY.