The Ketchum Report

[BobZenor]

How can the second species of lice exist only in the Americas if it originated on Homo Erectus then moved to HSS? Wouldn't it still be present in Africa and Europe even though it changed hosts?

You caught it too.....

I just found a post of mine on the old BFF where I had the same reservations in 2004. My point was that it might be simpler to assume that the native Americans picked it up from a hominid that lived here. Maybe that and the reported dating of the hybridization event might make some people consider that it is simpler if the ancestors of bigfoot actually lived in America. Both go against conventional and politically correct wisdom but it is an amusing thought or at least what it suggest is. It is amusing that evidence for Solutreans making it to America might come from a bigfoot study.

I wasn't serious when I stated that back in 2004 that a hominid living here was a simpler explanation since I realized that would be considered a wild assumption to most scientists and they would have been considered nuts by most of their peers.

The article I linked to is still around. It is pretty good if not dated.

http://www.innovatio...icht-34347.html

[Guest]

Actually, a murder, horde, parcel, or storytelling of crows.

None the less, DREAM ON R1!

It won't be long fellas...

I eagerly await the conclusion...of course I'm sure when it comes..this endless debate will still be here.

[Guest thermalman]

I suppose, only if YOU insist on the report being invalid, for whatever contrived imaginational reason YOU may have?

[Oonjerah]

If I may just interject an irrelevancy ...

Within the last 2 weeks, I learned that apes can't whistle.

Gorillas, chimps, baboons, orangutans, etc. can't whistle.

Man, home sapiens, is the only higher primate that can whistle.

Bigfoot can whistle. Quick calculation ...

If Bigfoot can whistle, then Bigfoot is human.

.

.

.

Please don't go on YouTube to look for:

BONNIE the WHISTLING Ape : Teaches Herself How To WHISTLE !

[Guest thermalman]

I make no apologises for backing Melba and her findings. I listened to her on the radio link and she gave a very good interview. For some to knock her down, especially without any proven alternative findings, is grandstanding at best. She's holding her own and is about to play her royal flush for all the money. Game, set and match.

Edited December 11, 2012 by thermalman

[Guest]

I make no apologises for backing Melba and her findings. I listened to her on the radio link and she gave a very good interview. For some to knock her down, especially without any proven alternative findings, is grandstanding at best. She's holding her own and is about to play her royal flush for all the money. Game, set and match.

I didn't knock her radio interview..just stated that there was nothing new. I was intrigued by her comment that she had an aquaintence who afforded her with an opportunity to *see* one...but didn't elaborate on exactly what she saw. I have to tell you...the fact that she has interjected her so called *personal* views (laws to protect them AHEAD of actual results being published) and so called experiences with BF does not bode well for her credibility and/or motives.

Edited December 11, 2012 by ronn1

[Guest]

It's apparent that some have an alliterative agenda, with hardened views of what can and can not be true,real,etc... seems to be a peculiar coincidence that a certain camp/followers, uMM.... that i can't think of the name, has taken this same hardened position, around the same time as it became a billboard type message that" this" has to happen, or "that" has to happen before "they" could be that.

these positions are more theory than true, in today's every day changing world, it's becoming more prevalent every day, that many future discoveries, will change past beliefs.

Edited December 11, 2012 by zigoapex

[Guest]

Sequencing DNA from any critter (or other organism) besides human, mouse or rat (common lab animals) or corn, soybean (common agricultural samples) or medically important bacteria or viruses was still problematic a few years back. Not impossible, but not as simple as the organisms I listed. I have to wonder if she eventually sent some material to lab with modern generation sequencing capabilities. Plenty of labs do it on a fee-for-service basis. As I've mentioned before, our core lab does it for around $5K per sample; 3-4 days for multiple confirming tests.

Thanks for the additional info.

Since I have posted infrequently, I suppose I should reveal my scientific predisposition (yes Mulder, I know I'm not supposed to have one)... I am a supporter of the sasquatch = ape camp. I would be shocked if sasquatch = human hybrid! My plate and fork are ready for a helping of crow, but in the long run I think not.

Genes

Nothing wrong with having a "predisposition" in that you have a theory you personally think is correct, so long as you are (as you seem to be) amenable to changing that theory based on new/additional evidence.

That's a far cry from the "institutional" position on BF (and a raft of other issues) where the attitude is "We've made up our mind. We're right, and don't bother us with data that indicates we in fact are not right."

I already posted this link to a message board...seems to be falling on deaf ears?

I suggest that anyone really interested in a VERY IN DEPTH discussion on Ketcham Study read through it.

Here's a sample:

EDITED..

To remove links to JREF....

You mean a very in depth bashing of the Ketchum study, Ketchum herself, and proponents in general, with a side of scorn that anyone is even bothering to look in the first place.

Finding objective and serious debate on the subject of BF (among other things) in that forum is like trying to find virgin on staff in a bordello.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Mulder

[Guest]

Part the Second:

Let us also consider the scenario that Ketchum is suggesting – in the very recent past (less than 15,000 years) an unknown primate bred with modern human females (mtDNA comes almost exclusively from the female line) producing the creature we now know as bigfoot. What, then, must the original unknown primate looked like?

Good question.

It is highly doubtful that the offspring of a creature that looks like bigfoot and a human would be fertile. They would almost certainly be as sterile as mules.

There are/were several hominids with decidedly NON-human appearances. Yet they ARE hominids.

Humans could not breed with our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees, or any living ape.

True, but the claim is not that we interbred with an "ape", but with a hominid.

It is probable that we could produce fertile young with Neanderthals,

It is absolutely PROVEN that we can and did, as segments of our population carry their genes. Same with Densiova.

It equals human DNA plus some anomalies.

The bottom line is this – human DNA plus some anomalies or unknowns does not equal an impossible human-ape hybrid.

Not what she suggested. Get your facts straight.

Yet Ketchum (somewhat prematurely) suggests:

"Government at all levels must recognize them as an indigenous people and immediately protect their human and Constitutional rights against those who would see in their physical and cultural differences a ‘license’ to hunt, trap, or kill them.â€

I'll grant you this part.

What can be recognized is the process of pseudoscience – anomaly hunting and then backfilling to the desired conclusion. What we don’t have is compelling evidence for a new species

In your opinion.

As far as annoying you..I have a simple suggestion..put me on *Ignore*.

Tempting, but someone has to keep setting the record straight with all the psuedo-skeptical rambling that is getting injected into this discussion by your side.

“If I have sex with a Tyrannosaurus, will we get a Brad-osauras Rex? No, of course not. That’s ridiculous. But I say that because it is ridiculous,†said McAndrews.

Oh he's a cleaver one, he is...nice attempt at a argument from credulity/absurdity. Too bad for him that his choice is so out there that his point is entirely irrelevant.

the fact that she has interjected her so called *personal* views (laws to protect them AHEAD of actual results being published) and so called experiences with BF does not bode well for her credibility and/or motives.

Weren't you just saying something about being tired of ad homs?

[yowiie]

This thread is going around in circles, everyone has there opinions and agendas, when in fact not one of the contributers to this topic know the full content of Dr Ketchums report, or for that matter any of it.

Reading some of these post brings me back to the school yard when we were kids, where everyone was trying to out do each other with the - mines bigger and better than yours. Its quite childish some of these

posts, why not just wait and see if the report does come to light, rather than speculate which only adds fuel to the fire. Then and only then can you start your childish crap

[Guest]

Sigh..........Shoulda took my own advice from the other day again.

[bipedalist]

It won't be long fellas...

I eagerly await the conclusion...of course I'm sure when it comes..this endless debate will still be here.

If it is it will be one poster debating himself since you asked everybody to put you on ignore.

[Guest Theagenes]

How can the second species of lice exist only in the Americas if it originated on Homo Erectus then moved to HSS? Wouldn't it still be present in Africa and Europe even though it changed hosts?

I'd thought the same thing. The only way this makes sense is if the lice in the Americas was an infestation from a hominid or primate that was in close contact with HSS and the hominid or primate was not extant outside the Americas.

Yep, I believe that's what Paul Green in that study was impying. That moderns humans interacted with remnant H. erectus in east Asia around 30-20K BP, picking up the Type B lice before moving on to the Americas. I did a little more research on this to as I had never heard this before (I found it accidently when I was looking for a lice article about losing our hair) and I found an peer-reviewed article from the following year showing that Type B was also found in Europe and Australia (this was mentioned in the 2008 article CTfoot posted above), weakening Green's case somewhat. Also, if you'll note in the 2004 article another geneticist suggests that the split between the two types of lice was more recent based on the mtDNA---around 300K BP rather than 1.8M BP. If correct that would suggest it wasn't H. erectus lice but a later hominid like Neanderthal.

This brings up an important point regarding dating based DNA. Initial reported dates in these studies almost invariably are too "old" and are usually adjusted in subsequent reports to be more recent. I also see this when DNA dates are compared to various radiometric dates (which also have problems) from archaeological contexts. For example the date for our body hair loss was originally placed at 3.3M BP, but has now been revised to 1M BP. The date for the first use of clothing by modern humans (also based on lice DNA) was first reported as 107K BP, but has been revised to 40K BP. I'm not sure why this is the case because I don't have enough knowledge about DNA dating---maybe CTfoot or GenesRUS can comment on that. But it is something to bear in mind when see dates based on DNA results coming from these two BF studies.

As you can see though, studying a primate's lice can be incredibly informative about that primate. In addition to sampling the DNA of the BF itself, researchers should be looking for BF lice to sequence as well. Does anyone know if this has been attempted?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Theagenes

[bipedalist]

As I said in an earlier post, Bill Dranginis snagged putative Sasquatch hair samples with lice sometime around 2007 IIRC.

He could not elaborate on whether it was something he had totally investigated last I asked on a private Facebook page.

He's a member here and could probably tell you more.

[Guest]

^^^^ There was some discussion on this before. The Sierra steak might have been a good source but Smeja claims to have salted the sample and I don't know if that process would clear any remaining from the flesh or not. Melba claims not have any data on the age of the unknown so I am to assume that louse recovery was not attempted or successful.