Weapon Of Choice

[FarArcher]

Nah.

 

Just get more gun.  .338 WinMag semi.  Less recoil, three times the magazine capacity, almost twice the energy, and a much farther reach.

[norseman]

I own both, and If I was in thick cover with something dangerous I would take the 45-70 hands down.

And its shooting a bullet TWICE the weight also of a 338.

And semi autos jam, ask me how I know........which is forgivable at 300 yards but not 30 yards, when something is keen on rubbing you into a greasy spot on the ground.

Also question? which 338 holds 15 plus rounds in a magazine? My guide gun holds 4 plus 1, and newer marlins or the cowboy model hold 6 plus 1 and 9 plus 1 respectively .

http://gunblast.com/Marlin-1895CB.htm

Edited October 14, 2015 by norseman

[SWWASAS]

How about a Nosler bolt action built up for a 458? Got an elephant to shoot? They list the M48 as being able to use that round. 500 grain bullet at 2190 FPS. Or if it night just pull out your Maglight and shine it at the BF. That sends them packing.

http://www.nosler.com/m48-custom-rifle

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Interesting comparison of penetration. I guess that is pertinent if you are shooting stacks of newspapers.

Edited October 14, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[FarArcher]

I own both, and If I was in thick cover with something dangerous I would take the 45-70 hands down.

And its shooting a bullet TWICE the weight also of a 338.

And semi autos jam, ask me how I know........which is forgivable at 300 yards but not 30 yards, when something is keen on rubbing you into a greasy spot on the ground.

Also question? which 338 holds 15 plus rounds in a magazine? My guide gun holds 4 plus 1, and newer marlins or the cowboy model hold 6 plus 1 and 9 plus 1 respectively .

http://gunblast.com/Marlin-1895CB.htm

 

 

 

 

 

It's still a nineteenth century based round.  A Sharps 50-90 will shoot an even heavier bullet - 600 grains, and be on either side of 1600 foot pounds of energy.  But I'm not going after buffalo.

 

The .338 WinMag may be half the bullet weight, but it's hitting twice as hard.    Double the foot pounds of energy.  Thick cover doesn't make much difference once you get to 30-caliber.  That .45 will turn just as fast as that .33.

 

All guns jam on occasion, and the reliability of a well made semi minimizes that risk.  I always have a .41 or .44 magnum on me for last  resort. 

 

I'll take the harder-hitting, faster repeating, lower recoil modern rifle. 

 

I've gotten a real close look at what I'd be shooting, so I know for a fact what I want in my hand. 

How about a Nosler bolt action built up for a 458? Got an elephant to shoot? They list the M48 as being able to use that round. 500 grain bullet at 2190 FPS. Or if it night just pull out your Maglight and shine it at the BF. That sends them packing.

http://www.nosler.com/m48-custom-rifle

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Interesting comparison of penetration. I guess that is pertinent if you are shooting stacks of newspapers.

 

The .458 is a bit painful.  It kicks so hard, it takes a moment to get back on target.  And I'd never, EVER take a bolt action after one of these things. 

 

Besides, it's got the ballistic trajectory of a softball. 

 

And you're right.  I'm not punching wet newspapers.  If I take the shot at one of these, I have to impart a load of hydrostatic shock to ensure he drops right where he stands.  Even if he starts to crawl or get up, I'm on target again in less than a second with the .338.

Edited October 15, 2015 by FarArcher

[Yuchi1]

I own both, and If I was in thick cover with something dangerous I would take the 45-70 hands down.

And its shooting a bullet TWICE the weight also of a 338.

And semi autos jam, ask me how I know........which is forgivable at 300 yards but not 30 yards, when something is keen on rubbing you into a greasy spot on the ground.

Also question? which 338 holds 15 plus rounds in a magazine? My guide gun holds 4 plus 1, and newer marlins or the cowboy model hold 6 plus 1 and 9 plus 1 respectively .

http://gunblast.com/Marlin-1895CB.htm

 

~70 million dead bison via the .45-70 (among other calibers) can't be wrong.

 

Before I had a muzzle brake installed on the Weatherby Mark V in .338 Win. Magnum, it killed on one end and maimed on the other.

 

I recently got my hands on a bolt action 25-06. Sweet little gun, and very accurate. I can shot a 1 inch group from 150 yards with it. They say you can use it for elk and moose. Heard some say makes a good black bear gun too. Nice gun and no doubt it would be good for flat long range shooting on something but I am feeling it might lack the power for an up close stopper. Still it is fun to shoot, nice little recoil for someone my size.

Personally I think that it is too small to reliably kill moose or elk for the average hunter

I witnessed a 1 shot kill on a good sized moose by a guy shooting a 6mm (240) Remington, however I think that was an exception to the rule

I believe that we owe it to the animals that we hunt, to dispatch them as humanely as possible and that includes using firearms/cartridge/bullet combinations that will reliably work on them if we do our part

 

 

IMO, bullet quality & bullet placement are ~90% of the equation.  However, in a condition red or black situation, a lot of that goes out the window.

[SWWASAS]

One day I was in the woods and someone let loose with a heavy machine gun. I have been around M-16s on full automatic fire and it was definitely something heavier. Not having been in the army I would guess it was a WWII era heavy machine gun. Rate of fire seemed slower than modern day machine guns but I don't have any experience with them. Needless to say I did not go and investigate. I guess it is legal to own one if you have the permits but a few years ago some Moslem jihadists were arrested firing automatic weapons (I think they were AK-47s) in a gravel pit. A deputy sheriff just happened to drive by. They are still in prison as they were plotting to travel to the middle east and join some terrorist organization. I have wondered if what I heard was some military operation. One of those BF stories where the military are hunting down BF. In any case probably good I was not close to whatever was going on.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[Woodslore]

To put it out there I was not in the mind to try it on elk or moose. I got a .303 British for Moose and bear if I need to. Though in truth the 25-06 would be better than nothing. Heck of coyote and raccoon gun I would think . 

P.S not a fan of Raccoon's 

[FarArcher]

I never said it wouldn't kill anything.  .22's have killed a lot of game, too.  The .45-70 is a clean killer, but a slower killer. 

 

I don't like slow.  In this instance, I think slow is bad, as it needs to drop right in its tracks.  Period.  I'm going to rely on maximum hydrostatic shock using handloads with a nice, well designed meplat.  Above 2400fps, I've got a .50 caliber hole anyway.

 

After all, the .338 WinMag is a .458 WinMag necked down.  Big medicine.

[norseman]

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html

Find me a box of 338 win mag ammo that is intended for Elephant, Rhino, Hippo and Cape Buffalo.

Your not making any sense. No PH in Africa is going to let you hunt any of those four species with a 338 win mag.

You can argue that you do not need that much medicine on a Squatch and you want more flat shooting range that the 338 offers and that is acceptable to me. But close range lethality? Its no contest........

How about a Nosler bolt action built up for a 458? Got an elephant to shoot? They list the M48 as being able to use that round. 500 grain bullet at 2190 FPS. Or if it night just pull out your Maglight and shine it at the BF. That sends them packing.http://www.nosler.com/m48-custom-riflehttp://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmlInteresting comparison of penetration. I guess that is pertinent if you are shooting stacks of newspapers.

Wet newspaper is an acceptable substitute for flesh and bone as African safari notes seem to bear out.

But a 458 win mag is big medicine absolutely, but I dont like bolt actions and Im left handed.

[FarArcher]

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html

Find me a box of 338 win mag ammo that is intended for Elephant, Rhino, Hippo and Cape Buffalo.

Your not making any sense. No PH in Africa is going to let you hunt any of those four species with a 338 win mag.

You can argue that you do not need that much medicine on a Squatch and you want more flat shooting range that the 338 offers and that is acceptable to me. But close range lethality? Its no contest........

How about a Nosler bolt action built up for a 458? Got an elephant to shoot? They list the M48 as being able to use that round. 500 grain bullet at 2190 FPS. Or if it night just pull out your Maglight and shine it at the BF. That sends them packing.http://www.nosler.com/m48-custom-riflehttp://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmlInteresting comparison of penetration. I guess that is pertinent if you are shooting stacks of newspapers.

Wet newspaper is an acceptable substitute for flesh and bone as African safari notes seem to bear out.

But a 458 win mag is big medicine absolutely, but I dont like bolt actions and Im left handed.

 

 

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html

Find me a box of 338 win mag ammo that is intended for Elephant, Rhino, Hippo and Cape Buffalo.

Your not making any sense. No PH in Africa is going to let you hunt any of those four species with a 338 win mag.

You can argue that you do not need that much medicine on a Squatch and you want more flat shooting range that the 338 offers and that is acceptable to me. But close range lethality? Its no contest........

How about a Nosler bolt action built up for a 458? Got an elephant to shoot? They list the M48 as being able to use that round. 500 grain bullet at 2190 FPS. Or if it night just pull out your Maglight and shine it at the BF. That sends them packing.http://www.nosler.com/m48-custom-riflehttp://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.htmlInteresting comparison of penetration. I guess that is pertinent if you are shooting stacks of newspapers.

Wet newspaper is an acceptable substitute for flesh and bone as African safari notes seem to bear out.

But a 458 win mag is big medicine absolutely, but I dont like bolt actions and Im left handed.

 

 

Big deal.  The first half of the 20th century, ivory hunters used a variety of small bores of the 6.5mm, 7mm, .303, .318, and similar calibers.  In case no one noticed, lately poachers have had great success with an AK-47 - a .30 caliber cartridge - and a shot one at that.

 

In culling operations in Africa against the big boys, the 7.62 NATO is used often enough as it's plentiful. 

 

Now it's just a guess, but I'd say that the .338 Win Mag would kill an elephant if a 7.62X39mm will.  Or a .303. 

 

The .338 Win Mag is the smallest legal caliber for the African Big 5 you can hunt with - so apparently it will in fact perform well enough.

 

The .338 will penetrate 3/4" of steel plate at a 45 degree angle at 330 yards, and then put a half inch dimple in the plate behind that one.  Since most like to hit the brain on an elephant - it more than does the job.

 

But forget all that.  Even if the .338 performs 95% as well against a close-in beast - I can put 14 rounds into a man-sized silhouette at fifty yards in four seconds.

 

It's not even close.

[norseman]

I would like to see that...... And I still dont know which semi auto 338 holds 14 rounds......

And no it wont perform well enough. A 338 in Africa is considered a "medium" size cartridge. Eland, Gemsbok, Kudu or Lion, Leopard, etc. Remember that the African "big five" includes cats.

As far as your comment on hunting Elephants with an AK? How many of those ivory hunters turn into greasy spots on the ground?

You can jump up and down and stomp your feet but the 45 70 is a much much better dangerous game cartridge than a 338 win mag is, in fact a 338 does not even make the category. Even the 45 70 is on the lower end, with the 700 nitro express being the mack daddy.

[FarArcher]

I would like to see that...... And I still dont know which semi auto 338 holds 14 rounds......

And no it wont perform well enough. A 338 in Africa is considered a "medium" size cartridge. Eland, Gemsbok, Kudu or Lion, Leopard, etc. Remember that the African "big five" includes cats.

As far as your comment on hunting Elephants with an AK? How many of those ivory hunters turn into greasy spots on the ground?

You can jump up and down and stomp your feet but the 45 70 is a much much better dangerous game cartridge than a 338 win mag is, in fact a 338 does not even make the category. Even the 45 70 is on the lower end, with the 700 nitro express being the mack daddy.

 

 

I'm not jumping up and down.  You're seeming to be a bit touchy on the matter.  Neither of us is hunting elephants.  At least I'm not.

 

Lots of old stuff from the nineteenth century will kill.  An 1856 Tower Rifle will kill.  The reason it's called a 'clean kill' with a big bore is that often the wound actually closes back up, and the vacuum inside the chest cavity doesn't allow the blood to flow freely - and then exit freely - and that's also why they call it a slow kill.

 

You're mistake is likely in equating the recoil of a bolt action .338 -  if you have any doubts as to the ability to put fourteen .338WM rounds in a man-sized silhouette at fifty yards in under four seconds.  Forget that recoil.  Modern rifles have eliminated most of that recoil, and it shoots much like a 25.06.

 

Now by the time you can put your four rounds downfield, I can put over a dozen.  It's pretty simple arithmetic.  That .45-70 doesn't have a nickel's worth of advantage over the .338WM on anything in North America.

 

Besides, I can put out four times the firepower in the same amount of time.

[norseman]

With dangerous game? They talk miliseconds and mere feet and not seconds nor yards. Your missing the whole point of a dangerous game rifle. One shot is all thats required to stop a determined charge by a dangerous animal. Because one shot is probably all your gonna get. And while the 45 70 is old and many loads are trapdoor safe loads? The modern ammo loaded + P? Rivals energy levels put out by the 338 except twice the size of the projectile.

The crux of my touchiness is that your argument that a 338 is a better dangerous game cartridge is false. And I dont want anyone reading this to get the wrong idea. There are plenty of things a 338 does better, its faster, flatter shooting, better bullet coefficiency, it kills better at range.

Im still not trailing a wounded grizzly bear into the brush with it if I have a guide gun handy, and that would be most anyones opinion in the sport.

Lastly I really do want to know what semi auto 338 rifle you are talking about thats gonna put 14 shots on target in four seconds.

[FarArcher]

With dangerous game? They talk miliseconds and mere feet and not seconds nor yards. Your missing the whole point of a dangerous game rifle. One shot is all thats required to stop a determined charge by a dangerous animal. Because one shot is probably all your gonna get. And while the 45 70 is old and many loads are trapdoor safe loads? The modern ammo loaded + P? Rivals energy levels put out by the 338 except twice the size of the projectile.

The crux of my touchiness is that your argument that a 338 is a better dangerous game cartridge is false. And I dont want anyone reading this to get the wrong idea. There are plenty of things a 338 does better, its faster, flatter shooting, better bullet coefficiency, it kills better at range.

Im still not trailing a wounded grizzly bear into the brush with it if I have a guide gun handy, and that would be most anyones opinion in the sport.

Lastly I really do want to know what semi auto 338 rifle you are talking about thats gonna put 14 shots on target in four seconds.

 

There's NEVER been a guaranteed one-shot stop on anything by any rifle.  You're overstating things.

 

That adage that you only get one shot?  That's a load of manure - unless you have a rifle that's slow to cycle.  Milliseconds is a very, very short period of time.  Shooting two rounds per second is not fast shooting.  Unless you're using a bolt action or lever action.

 

Now anyone can handload up, and get additional speed/energy, but let's stick to the general basics for sake of discussion.  Because I can really crank up the .338 loads, and all other things being equal, I can squeeze out yet another 100fps (more foot-pounds of energy) just by using the machined-base North Fork bullets.

 

If you have a 300-grain bullet in an 1895 with 22-inch barrel - which you don't - I think yours is around 18.5" - you'll typically get about 1900fps, and that translates into roughly 2300 foot-pounds of energy.

 

The .338 Win Mag, firing a 225 grain bullet blows out at 2800fps, and has 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

2300 foot pounds of energy is NOT even close to 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

And again, I can be squirting them out four times faster thanks to modern rifle technology.  Then I can take that same rifle and drop some really big stuff out at 400 yards. 

 

Nostalgia is fine.  I love nostalgia.  But I don't get hung up on it.

[Bonehead74]

After all, the .338 WinMag is a .458 WinMag necked down. Big medicine.

The .338 Win mag is based on a necked down .375 H&H mag case. The .458 is also based on the .375 H&H mag case, just renecked for the bigger pill.

I also am curious about the identity of the rifle you are describing to fire the .338 Win mag. This interests me greatly, so I look forward to your response.