Weapon Of Choice

[norseman]

With dangerous game? They talk miliseconds and mere feet and not seconds nor yards. Your missing the whole point of a dangerous game rifle. One shot is all thats required to stop a determined charge by a dangerous animal. Because one shot is probably all your gonna get. And while the 45 70 is old and many loads are trapdoor safe loads? The modern ammo loaded + P? Rivals energy levels put out by the 338 except twice the size of the projectile.

The crux of my touchiness is that your argument that a 338 is a better dangerous game cartridge is false. And I dont want anyone reading this to get the wrong idea. There are plenty of things a 338 does better, its faster, flatter shooting, better bullet coefficiency, it kills better at range.

Im still not trailing a wounded grizzly bear into the brush with it if I have a guide gun handy, and that would be most anyones opinion in the sport.

Lastly I really do want to know what semi auto 338 rifle you are talking about thats gonna put 14 shots on target in four seconds.

 

There's NEVER been a guaranteed one-shot stop on anything by any rifle.  You're overstating things.

 

That adage that you only get one shot?  That's a load of manure - unless you have a rifle that's slow to cycle.  Milliseconds is a very, very short period of time.  Shooting two rounds per second is not fast shooting.  Unless you're using a bolt action or lever action.

 

Now anyone can handload up, and get additional speed/energy, but let's stick to the general basics for sake of discussion.  Because I can really crank up the .338 loads, and all other things being equal, I can squeeze out yet another 100fps (more foot-pounds of energy) just by using the machined-base North Fork bullets.

 

If you have a 300-grain bullet in an 1895 with 22-inch barrel - which you don't - I think yours is around 18.5" - you'll typically get about 1900fps, and that translates into roughly 2300 foot-pounds of energy.

 

The .338 Win Mag, firing a 225 grain bullet blows out at 2800fps, and has 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

2300 foot pounds of energy is NOT even close to 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

And again, I can be squirting them out four times faster thanks to modern rifle technology.  Then I can take that same rifle and drop some really big stuff out at 400 yards. 

 

Nostalgia is fine.  I love nostalgia.  But I don't get hung up on it.

Nothing is guaranteed, but you pick the rifle for the job. A 338 is not a dangerous game rifle.

And I dont know where you are getting your energy numbers from but they are way off.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=328

Try more like 3200 ft/lbs with a 18 inch barrel for a 300 grain bullet.

And Im not going to address any more of your rapid fire 338 statements until you NAME the rifle your attempting this with. Because its a pipe dream. 14 rounds on target in less than four seconds is not doable. I look forward to your youtube video in which you prove me wrong.

[FarArcher]

The .458 WinMag is more of a straight wall case than the 375 H&H, and shorter in overall length.  The very base is identical, with the belted area, but after that, they completely part ways.  I never addressed the inspiration for the case.

 

The.458 WinMag is a proprietary design by Winchester. 

 

As I stated, to make the .338 WinMag, they simply necked down the .458 WinMag case.  A proprietary Winchester case.

 

And while I like to carry my Model 57 around camp, if I were in the field where Critters were, I'd carry a .460 S&W, which by the way, has almost the exact, same ballistics as the .45-70.  But much more compact, and even faster to get into action than the guide gun in .45-70.

[FarArcher]

 

 

With dangerous game? They talk miliseconds and mere feet and not seconds nor yards. Your missing the whole point of a dangerous game rifle. One shot is all thats required to stop a determined charge by a dangerous animal. Because one shot is probably all your gonna get. And while the 45 70 is old and many loads are trapdoor safe loads? The modern ammo loaded + P? Rivals energy levels put out by the 338 except twice the size of the projectile.

The crux of my touchiness is that your argument that a 338 is a better dangerous game cartridge is false. And I dont want anyone reading this to get the wrong idea. There are plenty of things a 338 does better, its faster, flatter shooting, better bullet coefficiency, it kills better at range.

Im still not trailing a wounded grizzly bear into the brush with it if I have a guide gun handy, and that would be most anyones opinion in the sport.

Lastly I really do want to know what semi auto 338 rifle you are talking about thats gonna put 14 shots on target in four seconds.

 

There's NEVER been a guaranteed one-shot stop on anything by any rifle.  You're overstating things.

 

That adage that you only get one shot?  That's a load of manure - unless you have a rifle that's slow to cycle.  Milliseconds is a very, very short period of time.  Shooting two rounds per second is not fast shooting.  Unless you're using a bolt action or lever action.

 

Now anyone can handload up, and get additional speed/energy, but let's stick to the general basics for sake of discussion.  Because I can really crank up the .338 loads, and all other things being equal, I can squeeze out yet another 100fps (more foot-pounds of energy) just by using the machined-base North Fork bullets.

 

If you have a 300-grain bullet in an 1895 with 22-inch barrel - which you don't - I think yours is around 18.5" - you'll typically get about 1900fps, and that translates into roughly 2300 foot-pounds of energy.

 

The .338 Win Mag, firing a 225 grain bullet blows out at 2800fps, and has 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

2300 foot pounds of energy is NOT even close to 3,918 foot pounds of energy.

 

And again, I can be squirting them out four times faster thanks to modern rifle technology.  Then I can take that same rifle and drop some really big stuff out at 400 yards. 

 

Nostalgia is fine.  I love nostalgia.  But I don't get hung up on it.

Nothing is guaranteed, but you pick the rifle for the job. A 338 is not a dangerous game rifle.

And I dont know where you are getting your energy numbers from but they are way off.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=328

Try more like 3200 ft/lbs with a 18 inch barrel for a 300 grain bullet.

And Im not going to address any more of your rapid fire 338 statements until you NAME the rifle your attempting this with. Because its a pipe dream. 14 rounds on target in less than four seconds is not doable. I look forward to your youtube video in which you prove me wrong.

 

 

There's tons of folks out there that disagree with you entirely on whether or not the .338 is good for dangerous game.  I know you're sweet on that nineteenth century round, but again, it's a slow kill.  There's an entire army of guides who carry the .338 as the backup gun.  And most guides prefer you use a .338 WM - or larger, and they like the fact that a typical shooter can reach out at distance and drop a brownie, with authority, as 200-300 yards.

 

As I said, some of the special ammo you mention is uncommonly loaded up for maximum performance.  What you just demonstrated is a special loading.

 

I can do the same, exact thing with the .338 WM, or any round as far as that goes.  I can work up some really hot loads, and still maintain the vast distance between the foot pounds of energy put out by the .338 over the .45-70.  I've been reloading my own ammunition for decades.

 

You're telling me you can't fine a semi-automatic .338 WM with a fourteen shot capability?  Then by what authority do you have to judge something you can't even find?  You clearly aren't aware of it.  Less recoil than an M-14 in .308, and barely under $6000.

 

I'm not sure of your background, but putting out that many rounds of .338 WM on a man-sized silhouette at only fifty yards is nothing special.  Likely, anyone here can do it.  Study up and consider a reflex sight in 2X, mounted on the rifle - if you can find it.  There's no discernible recoil, so it's very easy to shoot accurately at 600 meters, one shot per second.  Man-sized silhouette at only 50 yards with only a reflex 2X sight - a girl can do it.

 

My sole interest was the ability to hit something shaped more or less like a man, accurately, with authority, at 50-100 yards, with rapid follow-on shot capability, large magazine capacity, and low recoil to keep my reflex sight on him.  I can't afford to let it crawl away, nor be picked up and carried away.

 

Shooting an accurate string in just a few seconds is no pipe dream.  Unless you're unaware of what's out there.  That capability comes from being aware of what's out there, how it CAN be used, and knowing your own capabilities.

 

I contacted a number of manufacturers over the past couple of years, begging for this rifle in .338 WM.  Finally, and it likely didn't have anything to do with me - but one manufacturer came out with one. 

 

Whether your wish to address this further or not - whatever floats your boat.

 

But don't ever tell me what I can do and what I can't.  You don't even know what I'm talking about, and your entire experience with the round is apparently based on a bolt-action .338.  And that's no basis at all.

[Bigtex]

None of these guns are worth a flip if they can't be deployed in time to save yourself.......most of the animals that can do you harm are ambush predators, and are pretty darn good at sneaking up on folks. I hike with a Wolf, I know she's close by, but usually can't see or hear her......then will call her, and she's standing right behind me.......there's a clue of the situation you could be dealing with.

 

The question really becomes, which of these high powered firearms can be at the ready fastest? 

 

I did some research on this years ago, and was amazed at the number of people injured or killed that were packing plenty of heat......be careful out there, but most of all BE READY FREDDY!

[FarArcher]

None of these guns are worth a flip if they can't be deployed in time to save yourself.......most of the animals that can do you harm are ambush predators, and are pretty darn good at sneaking up on folks. I hike with a Wolf, I know she's close by, but usually can't see or hear her......then will call her, and she's standing right behind me.......there's a clue of the situation you could be dealing with.

 

The question really becomes, which of these high powered firearms can be at the ready fastest? 

 

I did some research on this years ago, and was amazed at the number of people injured or killed that were packing plenty of heat......be careful out there, but most of all BE READY FREDDY!

 

All that's true.  I've been in over 40 combat gunfights, and some were meeting engagements, some were ambush initiated - our side - and some were just ongoing shoot and maneuver. 

 

Each firearm is a specialized tool.  One is great for one purpose, and has limitations when in another situation.  The trick is to have on you that which fits your prey, the terrain you're in, your skill level, your experience, and is sufficient to perform the assigned task.

 

This .338 is ideal for exactly what I'll be using it for.  It's not ideal for a number of other purposes nor is it ideal for all terrains.  It has limitations like all firearms.  I don't even deer hunt with a rifle any longer - decided it was easier and more fun with an iron sight pistol.

 

The sights.  I'm not loading it down with a good scope as that's NOT what I'll be using it for.  Anyone that can't hit a 4'X8' sheet of plywood with iron sights at a hundred yards needs some work.

 

A simple 2X reflex is small, light, and easy to the eye.  And after dark, you can clamp right in front of it a FLIR T-70, and keep right on working.

 

Which firearm can be at the ready the fastest?  From a sling carry?  Without a doubt - the guide gun.  It's lighter and shorter. How much faster?  Assuming both are carried with a round up the pipe, maybe a half-second. 

 

Which firearm can be ready the fastest for a second shot?  The .338.  That's where you'll get that half second back. At least.

 

Which firearm can be ready the fastest for maybe an ninth shot?  .338.  By multiple seconds.  And before anyone suggests the "one shot-one-drop" BS, this gets back to my own personal experience - that there are likely more than one at any given moment.  There's more than likely the one you see - and I wouldn't count on that being the only one.

 

Which firearm can be ready the fastest with the mostest?  The .338 WM.

 

I used to have a wolf as well.  RIght at 7' long, and weighed 170 pounds.  Best pet I ever had - and never barked.  They're multiple times smarter than any dog.  Fed it protein once a day and it was beautiful.  We were his pack.

[Bonehead74]

The .458 WinMag is more of a straight wall case than the 375 H&H, and shorter in overall length. The very base is identical, with the belted area, but after that, they completely part ways. I never addressed the inspiration for the case.

The.458 WinMag is a proprietary design by Winchester.

As I stated, to make the .338 WinMag, they simply necked down the .458 WinMag case. A proprietary Winchester case.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/great_cartridge_families.htm

[norseman]

 

There's tons of folks out there that disagree with you entirely on whether or not the .338 is good for dangerous game.  I know you're sweet on that nineteenth century round, but again, it's a slow kill.  There's an entire army of guides who carry the .338 as the backup gun.  And most guides prefer you use a .338 WM - or larger, and they like the fact that a typical shooter can reach out at distance and drop a brownie, with authority, as 200-300 yards.

========================================

I'm not sweet on anything. Ive split an elk open that had been hit by both calibers. I KNOW what Im talking about. If you want maximum penetration that breaks shoulder bones....both of them and exits the animal? There is only one choice.

And what you seem to fail to grasp is the role of hunter vs guide. I have no problem with a HUNTER going after a Griz at 300 yards eating grass and blissfully unaware of his presence. But after the hunter gut shoots the Bear and it runs off to a Alder thicket to await your arrival with teeth and claws at 10 feet? You may wanna dig around the golf bag for something different......

====================

 

As I said, some of the special ammo you mention is uncommonly loaded up for maximum performance.  What you just demonstrated is a special loading.

======================

No its not. I can buy it over the counter at Cabelas or Sportsman warehouse. Your confused. Ammo manufactures are scared that your gonna load good modern ammo in your grand dads trap door rifle. 45 LC suffers from similar concerns. And its why they tweaked calibers just a tad so they will not quite load in old firearms, such as the 450 Marlin. Which of course flopped, and its why we have left the trap door owners in the dust.

===========================

 

I can do the same, exact thing with the .338 WM, or any round as far as that goes.  I can work up some really hot loads, and still maintain the vast distance between the foot pounds of energy put out by the .338 over the .45-70.  I've been reloading my own ammunition for decades.

============================

So have I. And you can run but you cannot hide.

http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

Play with that Taylor knockout value calculator and get back to me.

=======================

 

You're telling me you can't fine a semi-automatic .338 WM with a fourteen shot capability?  Then by what authority do you have to judge something you can't even find?  You clearly aren't aware of it.  Less recoil than an M-14 in .308, and barely under $6000.

======================

I found it. Ridiculous.

It's a Nemo Omen rifle, made over in Kalispel, MT.

==============================

 

I'm not sure of your background, but putting out that many rounds of .338 WM on a man-sized silhouette at only fifty yards is nothing special.  Likely, anyone here can do it.  Study up and consider a reflex sight in 2X, mounted on the rifle - if you can find it.  There's no discernible recoil, so it's very easy to shoot accurately at 600 meters, one shot per second.  Man-sized silhouette at only 50 yards with only a reflex 2X sight - a girl can do it.

================================

Do you own the rifle?

========================

 

My sole interest was the ability to hit something shaped more or less like a man, accurately, with authority, at 50-100 yards, with rapid follow-on shot capability, large magazine capacity, and low recoil to keep my reflex sight on him.  I can't afford to let it crawl away, nor be picked up and carried away.

=========================

Which is much better served scenario with a Marlin guide gun!!! A lever action in fast and utterly dependable. The 45 70 with modern ammo loads gets pass throughs on cape buffalo and has almost twice the Taylor KO value of a 338.

And on top of all of that? I can buy TEN guide guns for the price of your fancy DMR that is not even designed for the scenario your espousing!

==============

 

Shooting an accurate string in just a few seconds is no pipe dream.  Unless you're unaware of what's out there.  That capability comes from being aware of what's out there, how it CAN be used, and knowing your own capabilities.

===============

I look forward to your review video in the near future.

=====================

 

I contacted a number of manufacturers over the past couple of years, begging for this rifle in .338 WM.  Finally, and it likely didn't have anything to do with me - but one manufacturer came out with one. 

 

Whether your wish to address this further or not - whatever floats your boat.

 

But don't ever tell me what I can do and what I can't.  You don't even know what I'm talking about, and your entire experience with the round is apparently based on a bolt-action .338.  And that's no basis at all.

====================

Ive dug it out of a elk carcass with my hunting knife, thats all the basis I need.

Its a great medium sized game, long range cartridge........GREAT. Its why its cousin the 338 Lapua is a top notch sniper rifle. Much better than a 300 win mag, or a 7mm mag.

No biggie.......when the charge is coming and your silly AR is jammed..... you have my permission to hide behind me, Im ah giver!!!

Did you see the new Jurrasic park movie? Ah yes! Lever guns are BACK!

[Bigtex]

Thanks FanArcher, and from reading your post, many thanks for defending our Country!!

 

This may sound silly, but it works for me, and has saved my rear several times......and of course, talking about counter-moves on animals, not humans:)

 

As a child, I wasn't the biggest, but all the kids feared my rock throwing ability......left or right handed, doesn't matter........I could put several smaller rocks in hand, and machine-gun them out rapid fire, still can.

 

When hiking, I always keep a fist sized rock in my hand, and shaped so that I can get a good 2-fingered grip on it for power.

 

At the snap of a twig, sound, or peripheral sight flash ......you can send that rock on it's way faster than any weapon I know of, and can cause your agitator to pause long enough to deploy something more substantial. If you hit the critter, they will often run, but just getting the rock to hit near them works pretty good too.

[norseman]

9th shot? Wha? Its either dead or you are by the 9th shot in a dangerous game encounter.

OIC! Your a Bigfoot Army subscriber..........this is where this is going.

[FarArcher]

Thanks FanArcher, and from reading your post, many thanks for defending our Country!!

 

This may sound silly, but it works for me, and has saved my rear several times......and of course, talking about counter-moves on animals, not humans:)

 

As a child, I wasn't the biggest, but all the kids feared my rock throwing ability......left or right handed, doesn't matter........I could put several smaller rocks in hand, and machine-gun them out rapid fire, still can.

 

When hiking, I always keep a fist sized rock in my hand, and shaped so that I can get a good 2-fingered grip on it for power.

 

At the snap of a twig, sound, or peripheral sight flash ......you can send that rock on it's way faster than any weapon I know of, and can cause your agitator to pause long enough to deploy something more substantial. If you hit the critter, they will often run, but just getting the rock to hit near them works pretty good too.

 

I gotta confess - I never fought (battle) fair.  I cheated, I used ruses, I never gave the other guy a break whatsoever. 

 

I never really thought about throwing something in the wild before - but I'll keep that in mind.  I've used that kind of distraction in a fistfight - whether it's coffee and a time or two a beer - just gently toss it to them, but have that fist on the way before the distraction even gets there!

 

Good point, and I'll keep that in mind!

[FarArcher]

9th shot? Wha? Its either dead or you are by the 9th shot in a dangerous game encounter.

OIC! Your a Bigfoot Army subscriber..........this is where this is going.

 

So!  You finally figured it out.  Congratulations.

 

You still don't get it.  I'm not out hunting to break bones.  For the third or fourth time.  I don't give a good ******* about breaking bones in an elk.  You shoot an elk, it trots off a ways, and big deal - you track it.

 

I don't want to track one of these.  I want it dropped in place - USING HYDROSTATIC SHOCK.  That's where the velocity comes into play. I can get the same rifle in .458 WinMag, but I can't hold it on my point of aim shot after shot.  If I wanted something big and slow with the trajectory of a bowling ball - I'd get something to shoot a bowling ball.  I have a bolt action .458, but I don't want it because it won't do what I want it to do.

 

I can get the same rifle in .338 Lapua.  But I don't WANT it in .338 Lapua, as the bullet selections for that case are a bit more limited, and besides, I'm not shooting anything two counties over.

 

Yet again, you don't get it.  I'm not shooting a buffalo, I'm not shooting an elk.  I want it for one thing.  At a specific range.  In a specific terrain.  Something I saw up close - really, really close.  You don't know everything you think you do.  Your problem is not with what you don't know, but what you know that's just wrong.

 

You take in a lot of territory, but you're not holding much.

 

The reason you can buy 10 guide guns for the price of one of these is it's got capabilities the guide guns don't.  I also have a Jason Knight knife.  He normally makes 20 or so at a time, and they sell out immediately for about $1500 plus.  Mine is one of a kind he made it just for me.  I appreciate special items of quality, that will meet the specific need I may have.  The jack-of-all-trades and masters-of-none are sometimes handy, but not when my butt is on the line.  That line of thought has served me well.

 

There are at least three distinct individuals where I'll be making my shot - at night - and your rifle would be a disaster.

 

At night.  Where there's at least three, and likely a few more.

 

You don't know what you're talking about in this matter.

[norseman]

No, you dont know what your talking about and you contradict yourself in your own post.

Its quite obvious that you have very little experience hunting anything bigger than a deer. You plant things on the spot BY breaking BONE. Elk dont "trot off" when both front shoulders are broken........ Why use a 250 grain bullet that can deflect, break up or lodge in bone???? Especially if your life depends on it? If that archiac bowling ball can pass through a cape buffalo from brisket to ass? What is the problem here?

Quite frankly you couldnt GIVE me a semi auto rifle for dangerous game. But packing mules in the Rockies is a dirty business. But old and cheap technology works in the environments it was designed for......outdoors. Your not cleaning your rifle in a FOB every night. That rifle is going to eat trail dust, river crossings and wrecks, and still shoot.

Ive played with the notion of a 458 socom upper for my AR? But boiled down to brass tacks? I dont trust ARs.....they are junk.

Good luck with your rifle purchase...

[SWWASAS]

I have read this thread with some interest. Having heard a BF stomping through the timber headed right towards me, I think this discussion may be very pertinent if someone chooses to hunt them. Believe me, based only on that sound, I would want to be as well armed as I could afford. But I can almost guarantee you might have some doubt that you have enough gun in your hands should you encounter one at close range on the hunt.

Edited October 16, 2015 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[FarArcher]

No, you dont know what your talking about and you contradict yourself in your own post.

Its quite obvious that you have very little experience hunting anything bigger than a deer. You plant things on the spot BY breaking BONE. Elk dont "trot off" when both front shoulders are broken........ Why use a 250 grain bullet that can deflect, break up or lodge in bone???? Especially if your life depends on it? If that archiac bowling ball can pass through a cape buffalo from brisket to ass? What is the problem here?

Quite frankly you couldnt GIVE me a semi auto rifle for dangerous game. But packing mules in the Rockies is a dirty business. But old and cheap technology works in the environments it was designed for......outdoors. Your not cleaning your rifle in a FOB every night. That rifle is going to eat trail dust, river crossings and wrecks, and still shoot.

Ive played with the notion of a 458 socom upper for my AR? But boiled down to brass tacks? I dont trust ARs.....they are junk.

Good luck with your rifle purchase...

 

You don't trust AR's but you'll take a lever action rifle that hold only four rounds in the magazine - a round that was designed in the nineteenth century.  If I want old cheap technology, I can get a percussion Tower rifle in .58 caliber, deadly out to 1000 yards.

 

I don't want a rifle with the trajectory of a rainbow, but then again, I'm accustomed to shooting at all kinds of distances.

 

The reason there are so many rifle cartridges is that the technology actually advances.  Some things get better over time. which is why both cartridges and rifles advance.  Nineteenth century stuff will kill, but so will a javelin.  (we don't use those much anymore)

 

I used to live in Alaska, and used to trade rifles to remote Eskimo villages in every corner of Alaska for furs, jade, and ivory.  I've killed brownies, and blacks, and their blacks are pretty good sized, moose and sheep.  And I've had AR's not just on the polar ice cap, but on the north pole, and in fact, arrived by parachute.  AR's work just fine, and have been doing so for decades.

 

See, I don't know if you're just dense, or real slow.  You keep talking about breaking bones on elk.  I'll say it again.  I'm not hunting elk.  I don't give a **** about breaking a bone.  And the .338 will not deflect like you suggest.  That's not accurate.  Which is why for the large bears in North America, the .338 is THE choice, with the .375 a close second.

 

Energy is the ability to do work.  All numbers show the .338 WM to be capable of doing a lot more work than the .45-70.  And to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. 

 

Packing mules may be a dirty business, but I'm confused as to how, exactly, you use your rifle to pack a mule? 

 

New, advanced equipment also works in all sorts of environments, and you'll never get into all the environments our military runs into day in and day out.  Reliability is mandatory - and the AR based platforms work just fine.

 

You don't get out, much, do you?

[FarArcher]

I have read this thread with some interest. Having heard a BF stomping through the timber headed right towards me, I think this discussion may be very pertinent if someone chooses to hunt them. Believe me, based only on that sound, I would want to be as well armed as I could afford. But I can almost guarantee you might have some doubt that you have enough gun in your hands should you encounter one at close range on the hunt.

 

That's the thing.  I'm a strong believer in firepower.  There's stopping power and there's killing power.  Potassium cyanide has killing power, while an NFL Lineman has stopping power.  The trick is, to find that sweet spot in the middle - matching your task to your terrain to your own ability to your prey.

 

You want a four-shooter?  Or a fourteen shooter?  You want to change magazines in two seconds, or feed four rounds into a tubular magazine?  If I have something coming at me, I want to blow it apart, rapidly. 

 

Ever slip off the safety at night?  It clicks.  It can be heard.  Ever rack a lever action at night? 

 

And the optics flexibility is as good as it gets.  For a really big critter - a compact reflex sight is just fine, but in about fifteen seconds, you can cam down a FLIR T-70, and roll all night.

 

Just a little reminder:  Custer and his boys used .45-70's.