Weapon Of Choice

[Bonehead74]

Ever slip off the safety at night?  It clicks.  It can be heard.  Ever rack a lever action at night? 

Are you saying that you'll be close enough for it/them to hear you disengage the safety without them already being aware of your presence?

[MagniAesir]

Energy is not a reliable indicator of lethality when it comes to game

As far as a dangerous game stopping rifle, I have never heard of a single guide or professional hunter use a semi-auto

The reasons are simple, they are not 100% reliable and they are heavier and more unwieldy then other rifles

If you have hunted grizzlies then you know that the guides tell you to shoot just under the hump (side angle shot)

Why do they say this

Because they want the shot to break both shoulder bones and disable the bear

As far as the 45/70 goes, you can shoot traditional ammo that was loaded for trapdoor Springfields and the like

or

You can shoot factory loaded ammo designed for modern rifles like the guide gun, that puts the cartridge into a totally different category

or

If you have a Ruger #1 then you can really crank it up

Many Alaskan guides carry 45/70 guide guns as there stopping rifle, many others use bolt actions from 30/06 and up

Never heard of one packing a semi-auto

Never hear a guide or professional hunter advocate the spray and pray as a method for stopping dangerous game either

[FarArcher]

 

Ever slip off the safety at night?  It clicks.  It can be heard.  Ever rack a lever action at night? 

Are you saying that you'll be close enough for it/them to hear you disengage the safety without them already being aware of your presence?

 

 

Read what I said.  Exactly what I said.

[FarArcher]

Energy is not a reliable indicator of lethality when it comes to game

As far as a dangerous game stopping rifle, I have never heard of a single guide or professional hunter use a semi-auto

The reasons are simple, they are not 100% reliable and they are heavier and more unwieldy then other rifles

If you have hunted grizzlies then you know that the guides tell you to shoot just under the hump (side angle shot)

Why do they say this

Because they want the shot to break both shoulder bones and disable the bear

As far as the 45/70 goes, you can shoot traditional ammo that was loaded for trapdoor Springfields and the like

or

You can shoot factory loaded ammo designed for modern rifles like the guide gun, that puts the cartridge into a totally different category

or

If you have a Ruger #1 then you can really crank it up

Many Alaskan guides carry 45/70 guide guns as there stopping rifle, many others use bolt actions from 30/06 and up

Never heard of one packing a semi-auto

Never hear a guide or professional hunter advocate the spray and pray as a method for stopping dangerous game either

 

You may note I never proposed guiding anyone.  I'm not using mine for guiding.  I'm not shooting griz.  I'm not shooting buffalo, bobcats, sloths, or gerbils. 

 

Folks who use a guide are normally occasional trophy hunters who fly in, ride in, or boat in to a location, led by their guide, and take their shot. 

 

That backup gun?  Why would that even be necessary if the XXXX rifle is the end-all great perfect, reliable rifle?  It's because there is no such thing as an end-all, guaranteed, first-shot animal stopper.

 

One other thing.  If most guides consider the .338 WM the minimum they feel comfortable with - it's been impossible to have a semi in that caliber until now.  Then, there's the other factor.  Cost.  Some folks simply can't afford a $6000 rifle.  Third, it's about five pounds heavier than most bolt action rifles or even the guide gun.  Some people are unable to hump a rifle that heavy, or they're unwilling.

 

And finally, different folks have different limitations.  Different abilities.  Folks with lots of limitations need to stick to simple equipment - as they're not up to things when it gets real fast, real quick.  I know.  I've seen it scores of times.

 

Most of my experience has been a manhunter, hunting and killing them where I found them.  I'm skewed in that direction - in this instance, especially since I think these critters are hybrids of an older form of man.  Men and animals are different in many ways, and a dumb animal is really easy to take.  Man isn't.  I don't give a good ******* what bones you can break.

 

Two of us opened up on two dozen armed opponents in a stream, and we finished it.  Try that with a bolt action.  Or a four-shot lever action.  You're dead.  No - firepower has its advantages - and you won't need it - right up till the moment you need it.  Key being, you never know when that moment will come.  It's much better to have it and never need it, than to need it just once - and not have it.

 

1.  My opponent will be of a group.  Three for sure, likely a few others.  If anyone knowingly walks into that situation with a four-shot magazine - they probably won't walk out.  These things can throw large - very large rocks great distances - very accurately.  Lodge pine poles like a javelin.

 

2.  I'll be doing my work at night.  Where they normally have all the advantages.  And they have one advantage I've never seen anyone ever mention anywhere - coincidentally - the very reason everyone has failed to bring one in.  I must circumvent that ability, and can.

 

3.  These things are clever, have tactical excellence, and use deception like pros.  While they grab your attention with noise from one direction, a 20-pound rock may be flying at the back of your head from another direction.  So I don't give a flying rat's *** about using a very limited weapon. 

 

You guys use limited weapons on dumb animals.

 

That's not what I'm going after.

 

And for the record, the pray and spray relates to full auto weapons.

 

Not a medium bore semi-automatic.

[Explorer]

 

2.  I'll be doing my work at night.  Where they normally have all the advantages.  And they have one advantage I've never seen anyone ever mention anywhere - coincidentally - the very reason everyone has failed to bring one in.  I must circumvent that ability, and can.

 

 

 

 

FarArcher,

 

Can you please elaborate on the one advantage that BF has that nobody mentions?

 

Are you planning to rely mainly on the FLIR-T70 thermal sight to spot them at night?

[Incorrigible1]

Archer, do you have any chicken farming advice?

[FarArcher]

 

 

2.  I'll be doing my work at night.  Where they normally have all the advantages.  And they have one advantage I've never seen anyone ever mention anywhere - coincidentally - the very reason everyone has failed to bring one in.  I must circumvent that ability, and can.

 

 

 

 

FarArcher,

 

Can you please elaborate on the one advantage that BF has that nobody mentions?

 

Are you planning to rely mainly on the FLIR-T70 thermal sight to spot them at night?

 

 

It took me literally hundreds of hours, half of that in miserable conditions, to figure this out.  So no, I can't elaborate.

 

I don't date the prom queen all year putting up with her **** and then let someone else take her to the prom.

 

The T-70's on four rifles will be to get through our last night there, and keep anything from being carried off.

Archer, do you have any chicken farming advice?

 

Probably not as much as you have about working as the towel boy at a San Francisco bathhouse.

[norseman]

Yuchi said:

If the .45-70 caliber Marlin model 1895 with Garrett Hamerhead bullets won't stop your target, best to stay home.

Far Archer said:

Nah.

Just get more gun. .338 WinMag semi. Less recoil, three times the magazine capacity, almost twice the energy, and a much farther reach.

-----------------------------------------

I think we need to go back to the beginning, because Far Archer has flip flopped this debate into what HE needs. As much as it pains me to defend Yuchi? Yuchi is SPOT ON with his comment.

You'll notice Yuchi says STOP the target.....STOP.

Far Archer says "nah" and then mistakenly says that a 338 win mag is a better choice which is laughable and we all know it. Now if Yuchi has pointed to another ancient cannonball round and said "nah, just get MORE gun. A 600 nitro express"!?

I would have said nothing because the statement would have been accurate.

A "more gun" statement in the hunting world and especially dangerous game circles does not include things like the rifles range or magazine capacity or what action it has. Its understood your talking about caliber, and more specifically Taylor KO power.

If the idea of packing a big enough gun that one well placed shot stopping the charge now was ludicris? Then why do PH's pack 600 nitro express doubles in Africa???! Thats two barrels......one shot in each.

Why dont PH's in Africa just see the light and pack a 338 semi auto with a 14 round magazine WELL for very good reason actually because for things like Elephant, Rhino, Hippo or Cape Buffalo IT IS NOT ENOUGH GUN. The 45 70 lever guns were considered marginal and had to prove themselves against much bigger cartridges. And it did.

Why Africa? Far Archer isnt going to Africa right?

Because the discussion was originally about which caliber 45-70 vs 338 win mag was the bigger kid on the block. Africa is the ULTIMATE proving ground of dangerous big game cartridges, and hands down the 45-70 has proved itself there for the biggest of game.

Ok, so thats done and over with, Yuchi's comment stands.

Now lets move on and talk about Far Archers intended purpose for the Nemo Omen chambered in 338.

He believes in the Bigfoot Army hypothesis. This notion was promoted by Todd Standing in which Todd proclaimed that if a team of Navy SEALs was dropped in to hunt Bigfoot? Bigfoot Army would eviscerate them.......which is ridiculous.

But I certainly could see where if you thought this Bigfoot Army was legit you would want more firepower, and more gun as well from say a 5.56 or 7.62 nato round.

But if Standing is correct and a hunter is going to face intelligent attacks and flanking manuevers from a well coordinated enemy armed with stones and clubs and giant meat hooks? Well then the lone hunter is probably going to die after maybe taking one or two with him.

In a 360 degree battle space the USMC teaches "two is one and one is none". Humans do not have eyes in the back of our heads and we cannot cover 360 degrees. A point man and a tail end charlie can cut that into 180 degrees which is marginal. Four men at 90 degrees is better and six men is optimal and was the settled on number that Force Recon sent on recon patrols in Nam.

One guy no matter what he is armed with is a zero in this sort of encounter.

But I dont believe in Bigfoot Army, otherwise they would be knocking off Kroger grocery stores and 7/11's carrying of arm loads of zagnut bars and other goodies that make acorns downright unedible..........

One good thing that came from all of this is that Far Archer has joined the dark side as a pro kill member and you have to applaud that!!!

Good luck and be safe.

[FarArcher]

I'm sure Norseman has designated himself the firearm expert - and is willing to argue his point even when he was ignorant of the firearm I was speaking of.

 

He was unaware of its existence.  But he was positive his firearm was superior.  If that's the kind of advice you guys relish, then by all means, take it.

 

Putting 14 rounds downfield of high velocity in a more controlled firing hold, and in about the same time he can put out four rounds is not even close.  Anyone can use a bit of common sense to see the difference in this.

 

One reason I didn't want to use my .458 winmag is control.  It kicks up pretty hard, and even if it were an automatic, you've lost your sight picture completely, and it will take a moment to recover.

 

You cannot argue with physics.  Any .45-70 loaded hot with the heavier rounds kick - and kick pretty good.  If you've never fired one, I'd advise you do so before swallowing this line of baloney.

 

Norse doesn't believe in a Bigfoot Army.  It's this kind of gross exaggeration that excludes any statements by him as having any credibility.  Any of you who have examined the matter through the hundreds of narratives, may come to the conclusion that not all BF's are loners.  In fact, if it's a part-man, they're social creatures that live in groups.  If it's of the ape family - they too, are social creatures and live in small clans or groups.  Just because you may see ONE, doesn't mean that's all there are. 

 

To illustrate his fallable postulation, he resorts to going to .600 nitro express rifles?  Get out the news reports, and you'll find poachers killing everything Africa has to offer with short-round thirty caliber weapons - the AK-47.  7.62X39.  I even have a deep dimple in my left shin bone from taking one myself.  Didn't break my bone, though.  And yet it will kill rhinos, elephants, etc. 

 

I don't know who Todd Standing is, nor do I give a tinker's ****. 

 

Norse makes a lot of assumptions - incorrect I might add - to what my situation will be.  Listen to what he say about humans not being able to see 360 degrees.  What is he talking about? 

 

He has very limited experience in fighting in numbers.  He has zero tactical awareness, nor the tactics that would address any attack from any angle.  I just got through saying we'll have four rifles with the T-70 sights.  Anyone else wonder why I'd need four rifles with T-70's mounted?  Or does that indicate more than just me.

 

Is anyone else limited enough in their experience to think that for a moment I'm going to be in the open, subject to attack from behind with no provision to prevent that?  One has to be stone drunk to assume that.

 

Norse is unfamiliar with NDP's, something most combat men know a bit about.  In fact, everyone.  We'll be on site for two months - minimum.  In a reinforced redoubt at night.  He has no idea what I'm talking about doing - but you hear his opinion on everything he's ignorant of.

 

He quotes Force Recon.  I was Special Forces, and served also in two Ranger companies, with four combat MOS's.  I have decorations for valor.  Long range recon was what we did, and I'm very much aware of who can cover what.  We'd go out for two weeks, and our rear area was a forward firebase.  Did I forget to mention that?  We were always vastly outnumbered - I've never known anything else.

 

Norse, please.  Do school me on bush tactics.  Educate me on degrees of sight.  Tell me about night defensive positions.  Instruct me on tactical movement.  Share with me all your night fighting techniques - when you were significantly outnumbered.  Give us your analysis of flanking movements, and the cover technique of tactically turning the flank of your opponent in turn. 

 

I'd really like to hear about it.

 

I know the others attend your posts, unabated.  Breathlessly.

 

Stick to your mules and rainbow trajectories.  You're talking about amateur hour - and I'm talking about specific strategy backed by proven tactical principles.

 

In my world, you wouldn't have lasted a week.

[norseman]

Yes Im quite familiar with interwebz soper ninja warrior elite types.

[FarArcher]

Yes Im quite familiar with interwebz soper ninja warrior elite types.

 

You're not familiar with me.  Probably didn't read my book, either.  But the Marine Corp did, and they started what I suggested, called the Combat Hunter Training Program.  Credited with saving Marine lives and making them much more effective in combat.

 

The Army used another technique I proposed, the tic, tac, toe, and operating day and night, and suddenly started rounding up all those fellows they were looking for.  Especially the ones who in turn landed the biggest fish.

 

I'm also the keynote speaker at multiple Special Operations functions.  I can't imagine why.

 

Again, you're not as informed as you like to think you are.

 

I have never seen anyone make so many mistaken assumptions in such a short span of time as you have.

 

Congratulations.

[norseman]

My my how far I have fallen.........

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Far Archer wrote:

I do like your posts. Sounds like you too have spent much time in the brush.

And from one reference, I take it that you too, feel that only a body will be the proof required to make historians, anthropologists, and field biologists admit there's another bipedal hybrid homo out there.

You have some good stuff.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I will be crying myself into my pillow tonight because soper dooper ninja warrior doesnt like me anymore.

Good luck in your endeavors.......

[FarArcher]

Soldiers aren't 'soper dooper ninja warriors.' 

 

We are maligned from time to time by a handful of .  .  .  I think I'll just leave that unsaid.  Collectively, we ignore them the names they call us, and attribute it to either bitterness that they couldn't do the job, or a simple ignorance from some preconceived notion.

 

Some of us were triple volunteers, the one percent of the one percent - and our numbers are genetically limited.  Our little band has a documented kill ratio of 150:1.  Coincidentally, we're taught a few things.  We learn a few things.  We DO a few things.

 

Honestly, I don't even know of a real-life ninja, or group of real-life ninjas with numbers like those, now that you brought it up.

 

But no use crying about it.

[Bonehead74]

You're not familiar with me. Probably didn't read my book, either. But the Marine Corp did, and they started what I suggested, called the Combat Hunter Training Program. Credited with saving Marine lives and making them much more effective in combat.

Hi FarArcher,

I have more than a passing familiarity with the Combat Hunter program and curriculum. I know Gen. Mattis brought in Carter, Williams, and Donelan early to consult. It sounds like you played a pivitol role in it's development. What is the book that you wrote? I would be interested in reading it if I haven't already. Thanks!

Edited October 17, 2015 by Bonehead74

[FarArcher]

 

You're not familiar with me. Probably didn't read my book, either. But the Marine Corp did, and they started what I suggested, called the Combat Hunter Training Program. Credited with saving Marine lives and making them much more effective in combat.

Hi FarArcher,

I have more than a passing familiarity with the Combat Hunter program and curriculum. I know Gen. Mattis brought in Carter, Williams, and Donelan early to consult. It sounds like you played a pivitol role in it's development. What is the book that you wrote? I would be interested in reading it if I haven't already. Thanks!

 

 

I don't know any of them. 

 

I put it out there, what it was, how it would work, and sold a lot of books in Washington, DC.  Within months, the Marines began this program.  Got a good friend who's a Marine, and when I saw him, he was grinning, "someone's reading you."

 

Then when the Army changed up their search and clear tactics - as was outlined - they too, started having lots of success.  Sometimes orderly is disfunctional as it can be anticipated, whereas a process somewhat disorderly and random is very effective in that it's unanticipated.

 

It's terrible to be anticipated.