Huntster Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Wooly Booger said: I am an archaeologist. So yes, yes I suppose I am a scientist. At least according to my two Masters Degrees. Then I suppose you have both a vested interest and a responsibility in discovery. I don't. 2
wiiawiwb Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 11 hours ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: We have taken the past month off, but otherwise we are out every week with our ‘knives, guns, and gear’. Maybe we are just dumb rednecks with delusions of being capable of ‘scientific discovery’, but we are among the very few in this region who do anything beyond going to a comfortable camp ground to pose for Facebook photos in our adventurer gear or walking along well trodden paths trying to catch images of Sasquatch on shaky back cams. BRB, kindly know that you're doing what few people can or would do. You are dedicated to the task at hand and are tenacious in that pursuit. You're going up and over mountains with a heavy backpack when you could be home staring at a computer screen while nibbling on a cookie. You're fording streams and enduring rain storms when you could be home and have your feet up reading a book about sasquatch. You're trying to stay warm on cold nights in front of a fire while you could be home and simply turn up the thermostat. You're sleeping in a small tent, on a small air mattress, warmed only by the sleeping bag you carried in, when you could be home retire at night on your featherbed. You keep your eyes on the prize and persevere when others would have long ago chosen to trudge home, defeated, like Napoleon returning from Russia. It takes a special person to get up early when its still dark, go out and brave the elements, risk injury, and muster the energy to continue on. To always continue on. You're not delusional at all. You're an explorer in the purest sense of the word. Keep up the great work you're doing as it will produce results, you'll have lots of fun, and your adventures will create endless stories and memories in the process. Keep the faith. 2 2
wiiawiwb Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 6 hours ago, hiflier said: Ah, I see. Leave everything up to one person. Make sure they stay isolated and without any help from the community. Yeah, that;s the ticket, that'll get things done. Unless of course the ploy is to make sure things DON'T get done but instead remain the same? MIB told me one time that the reason I don't make headway with F&W or the scientific world is because I'm just one random person. And yet anyone who tries to reach out for help gets tossed onto that same pile, isolated and going it alone for the truth. I know the resistance hand. I tried to do things, but this Forum is just so much dead weight. Members like Wooly Booger and I get turned into the bad guys for wanting the truth to become public. And I've seen every excuse in the book for why Sasquatch won't be discovered. None of it useful for anything but making sure people that do want public discovery get squashed down and unassisted in any move toward that end. What no one really clearly explains is why that is when official recognition could happen for the most incredible creature modern man could ever know. Science could do this but no one will lift a finger to make it happen. I applaud your efforts and ingenuity and agree that eDNA will likely be the road to discovery. That said, not everyone's mission is the same as yours. My sole purpose is, and has always been, getting a sighting or having an encounter. Nothing else matters to me. Nothing. Not eDNA nor evidence collection for submission to a lab. For me, that will only come after I get that sighting. Are my pursuits deeply selfish and not geared toward a broader purpose? No need to plea the Fifth as that would be a resounding yes. Am I unwilling to devote efforts to further the discovery? At this point, I'll shout yes from the highest treetop. I suspect I am not alone in this regard. I wish you all the best in your endeavors with eDNA and hope they reap rewards. I really do. Until my interests are satisfied, I will continue to spend all of my time and efforts out in the forest looking for a sasquatch. I just finished lacing my boots and am headed out for an overnight in one of my areas of interest. 2
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 3 hours ago, wiiawiwb said: BRB, kindly know that you're doing what few people can or would do. You are dedicated to the task at hand and are tenacious in that pursuit. You're going up and over mountains with a heavy backpack when you could be home staring at a computer screen while nibbling on a cookie. You're fording streams and enduring rain storms when you could be home and have your feet up reading a book about sasquatch. You're trying to stay warm on cold nights in front of a fire while you could be home and simply turn up the thermostat. You're sleeping in a small tent, on a small air mattress, warmed only by the sleeping bag you carried in, when you could be home retire at night on your featherbed. You keep your eyes on the prize and persevere when others would have long ago chosen to trudge home, defeated, like Napoleon returning from Russia. It takes a special person to get up early when its still dark, go out and brave the elements, risk injury, and muster the energy to continue on. To always continue on. You're not delusional at all. You're an explorer in the purest sense of the word. Keep up the great work you're doing as it will produce results, you'll have lots of fun, and your adventures will create endless stories and memories in the process. Keep the faith. BlackRockBigfoot, I truly couldn't agree more with everything wiiawiwb said in this quote. My hat is all the way off here to you and Jesi for your efforts and staying connected here on the forum. You set the bar pretty high yourself, my friend. 3 hours ago, wiiawiwb said: I applaud your efforts and ingenuity and agree that eDNA will likely be the road to discovery. That said, not everyone's mission is the same as yours. My sole purpose is, and has always been, getting a sighting or having an encounter. Nothing else matters to me. Nothing. Not eDNA nor evidence collection for submission to a lab. For me, that will only come after I get that sighting. BANG! And there it is And I think most may be thinking that way. Thank you, because if that's the case, then my efforts regarding deploying the technology have not been in vain. It would be cool to have a lab in the wings that would be willing to test something for you. Otherwise, the critical methods of sample storage for a layman can be a pain. Keeping snow frozen, or melting it in a solution of ethanol, drying out a soil plug, etc. are not bad things to read up on even if a lab has been secured. What I found was that it was much easier to say I'm going to collect samples than it was to make sure I knew how to handle them properly afterwards. In either case, My hat is off to you, too, and anyone else who holds the value of eDNA in any regard. And it's not selfish at all to want to see one, most do.
BlackRockBigfoot Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 11 hours ago, hiflier said: Ah, I see. Leave everything up to one person. Make sure they stay isolated and without any help from the community. Yeah, that;s the ticket, that'll get things done. Unless of course the ploy is to make sure things DON'T get done but instead remain the same? MIB told me one time that the reason I don't make headway with F&W or the scientific world is because I'm just one random person. And yet anyone who tries to reach out for help gets tossed onto that same pile, isolated and going it alone for the truth. I know the resistance hand. I tried to do things, but this Forum is just so much dead weight. Members like Wooly Booger and I get turned into the bad guys for wanting the truth to become public. And I've seen every excuse in the book for why Sasquatch won't be discovered. None of it useful for anything but making sure people that do want public discovery get squashed down and unassisted in any move toward that end. What no one really clearly explains is why that is when official recognition could happen for the most incredible creature modern man could ever know. Science could do this but no one will lift a finger to make it happen. I would say that Wooly Booger is a respected member of the scientific community who would like public discovery. Let the Forum know why you don't give two hoots. Try not to sugar it up too much, okay? Oh, I won't sugarcoat it at all... Let's go point by point. "Ah, I see. Leave everything up to one person. Make sure they stay isolated and without any help from the community." What am I leaving up to one person? I am supposed to stop my own pursuits in the interest of furthering yours and Wooly's? Let's pursue this avenue for a moment. What is your pursuit, exactly? Because I see vague statements made, with no concrete plans for whatever you guys want to be accomplished. What are you wanting to do, exactly? A letter writing campaign? What is the address for the home office of the scientific community? What are we supposed to say? "Dear scientific community, We insist that you begin to take the subject of Bigfoot seriously. Here is a list of our demands. Signed, Some Guys From The Internet." I try to be pragmatic...or at least as pragmatic as someone who spends most of their free time looking for things that are not supposed to exist can be, I guess. Mainstream scientific acceptance would be great. But, if someone like Jeff Meldrum hasn't had any luck, then what am I supposed to do? He is a leading figure in his field. He is able to provide evidence and hypothesis. He is still relegated to sideshow status outside of the Bigfoot community when he brings up Sasquatch. "Members like Wooly Booger and I get turned into the bad guys for wanting the truth to become public. And I've seen every excuse in the book for why Sasquatch won't be discovered." We are going to change the narrative through sheer force of numbers? Our voices will be heard? Well, what sort of numbers are we going to have after we get everyone that we don't agree with out of the community? "You had equipment mysteriously drain of power? You saw strange lights immediately before finding tracks? Get the .... out of here!" So, a couple of hundred people are going to change the narrative? A couple of hundred people... who are unwilling to be adaptable and think outside of the box as far as their own beliefs on the subject go, but are going to demand that millions of others change their own beliefs? Just on their say so? A lot of you are unwilling to entertain even the remote possibility that there might be more to the subject than what you currently believe...but you expect the general public to do so? You know what? I think that a lot of the stranger stuff just seems unbelievable. But, I thought that UFOs were an interesting sideshow until recently. It goes to show that normalcy bias can get all of us. I have had some low level weird stuff go on when I am out looking for Bigfoot. Nothing major like others have reported. But, enough to convince me that something else is going on out there...and while it may not be directly related to Bigfoot it sure as heck is occurring in close proximity. I am supposed to shut up about that...because we are trying to impress the scientists here! No one thinks that you are bad guys. Take whatever approach that you see fit. The only thing that I take issue with is the purity test that some of you seem to want to impose...nothing says 'we all need to work together' like spending your time going after those who think differently than you. I think that gifting is kind of nonsensical, but someone's efforts at it have no bearing on my own. The narrative isn't going to change organically. It isn't going to change because we want it to or because we demand it. It is going to change when a total paradigm shifting event or piece of evidence comes about...like a body or government acknowledgement. I know that the topic of Bigfoot is very central to the lives and thoughts to most people on this forum...but, just try and step outside of yourself for a second. Look at the subject as a person who doesn't know or believe... There are very few degrees of separation between their views of a person who thinks that Bigfoot is an undiscovered ape and someone who is full blown woo. They just think that we are varying degrees of crazy. "I would say that Wooly Booger is a respected member of the scientific community who would like public discovery. Let the Forum know why you don't give two hoots. Try not to sugar it up too much, okay?" OK. If he is a well respected member of the scientific community...then why isn't he out there convincing his peers? I honestly wish him all the best. Wooly, I don't agree with your instant dismissal of anything that you don't agree with...but, I hope that you get more of your peers to look into the topic. If you think that a couple of housewives talking on Facebook about the Sasquatch who pop out of portals and live in their garden is really what is keeping the scientific community from taking it seriously...well, you may need to change your approach, because you are not going to be able to control people's beliefs and conversation on the subject. Also, I appreciate your ideas. Get out there and use the archaeological method to look for remains and evidence. Meanwhile, this guy is going to be out there leaving marbles on a stump, this dude is going to be posted up with a rifle, and this lady is going to be running around with dowsing rods or whatever they do. Someone taking a different approach to your own shouldn't affect your own pursuits. A holistic approach isn't going to hurt anyone. As far as not giving two hoots about public discovery...I would love to see public discovery. If you meant 'scientific acceptance', then yeah...you are kind of right. I really don't give two hoots, just like I don't really give two hoots that the sun will explode in 5 billion years. I don't give two hoots because it is outside of my realm of influence and there is nothing that I can currently do to change it...short of doing what I am already doing. If you think that there is something concrete and actionable, please let me know. No vague protestations about what people are not doing. If you have an idea, then let's hear it. I can appreciate your frustration on the current state of things, but spend that energy on something actionable, not windmills. 3 1
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: I am supposed to stop my own pursuits in the interest of furthering yours and Wooly's? This has nothing to do with me. How many times do I have to say that. Stop making it personal because it isn't and never has been. It's a tired diversion that many use to belittle a subject by belittling the person. It's the science of pursuing the unknown by using proven science to do it. All I did was present and promote the science because it works. It doesn't make me and shouldn't make me a pin cushion to be jabbed at as a deflection of what is true. eDNA isn't some hair-brained quack science that I dreamed up and perpetrated on the community. It's real and we have a mystery that could be explained by its use. You have a problem with me? Who cares. I will continue to push this science no matter what and will not back down just because someone wants to put my face on eDNA. It's a useless tactic. Edited June 12, 2021 by hiflier
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: But, if someone like Jeff Meldrum hasn't had any luck, then what am I supposed to do? He is a leading figure in his field. He is able to provide evidence and hypothesis. He is still relegated to sideshow status outside of the Bigfoot community when he brings up Sasquatch. That's why one needs to figure it out on their own and not place all their eggs in one basket. If I can do that, anyone can do it. I don't need Meldrum and don't rely on him. Never did. 17 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: "I would say that Wooly Booger is a respected member of the scientific community who would like public discovery. Let the Forum know why you don't give two hoots. Try not to sugar it up too much, okay?" OK. If he is a well respected member of the scientific community...then why isn't he out there convincing his peers? Do you know for a fact that he's not?
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 20 minutes ago, BlackRockBigfoot said: it is outside of my realm of influence and there is nothing that I can currently do to change it...short of doing what I am already doing. If you think that there is something concrete and actionable, please let me know. No vague protestations about what people are not doing. If you have an idea, then let's hear it. I can appreciate your frustration on the current state of things, but spend that energy on something actionable, not windmills. For myself I have, and I am. I'm not talking the talk while not walking the walk. I mean what's the point of talking about eDNA as something for someone else to do if I don't follow through on it myself? Find my lab, talk to someone who will run my samples if I get any? I've been setting the example through educating this Forum and then showing how easy it can be to write emails, have a dialogue with a scientist and his facility, etc, etc. Of course no one will know anything unless they give it a go and it doesn't mean dropping whatever anyone is doing. Instead it simply becomes a scientific part of it that could bring positive results. No one is negating what anyone is doing in the field as all want some kind of result or experience. And that includes me. But I can chase Bigfoot my entire life with out a finding, even if I see one. There's nothing wrong with scientifically proving what I saw, or testing the evidence I find. I think it to be a valuable sideline to field work. I'm out there anyway, so why not. Making sure one has a scientific end of the line in place is in and of itself motivating.
Doug Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) I am willing to risk showing my ignorance of scientific process by asking some questions to help me understand somethings. What I am perceiving here, is certain individuals who believe that Sasquatch is a certain thing and only that certain thing, for what ever reason, and have set out to prove that this is the case and seem unwilling to accept anything that goes counter to what they want to find. While certain others have entered into this area with an open mind and willing to go where the science takes them, no matter how uncomfortable it becomes or how far away from what they wanted to find it is. It seems to me that both methods are worth doing. It is when one of the methods begins to proclaim that the other method is wrong and the people who are experiencing these things are unstable, to put it mildly, because they have not experienced it, have not set out to do in-depth study on that, because it doesn't fit what they believe it to be that I become irritated.. To me, book smarts do not trump actually field experience. Someone who is looking at a Sasquatch and sees it do something that they have never witnessed an animal do, in my opinion, is more qualified to speak of it than someone who has immersed them selves into the subject through books, videos, scientific papers, and such. I see a lot of the flesh and blood camp regularly ridicule anyone who believes other wise. I rarely see the woo people ridicule the flesh and blood people other than in response to a perceived attack. I write this as someone who has had multiple encounters, with sightings by others who were with me at the time of the encounters, that has only seen flesh and blood things except for two of the encounters. I just want to understand this and truly mean no ill will towards anyone, although it may seem that I do. Edited June 12, 2021 by Doug
ShadowBorn Posted June 12, 2021 Moderator Posted June 12, 2021 Brb I champion your thoughts since that is where i have been for awhile now. We have gotten no where with this. No new ideas or nothing. No one is is open to thought. We attack those with ideas . But have never given thought to their ideas. I have pursued that woo side and learned allot. Which makes me believe that Justin did kill one of these creatures. What ever took place out in that field did not want it's details to be known. But this is my opinion. You want answers then you go all the way and do not stop. Until you find your own answers. 41 minutes ago, hiflier said: That's why one needs to figure it out on their own and not place all their eggs in one basket. If I can do that, anyone can do it. I don't need Meldrum and don't rely on him. Never did. I have always relied on Dr. Meldrum for his science and have never stopped. His knowledge on foot morphology has always been inspirational . I made a essay in college about Bigfoot knowing that I would probably be made fun off. I was wrong. My professor loved my essay and said that it was well thought out. Justin was smart on that day he could have collected the soil and the blood that was on the ground of where the creature was shot. The sample could have been taken for EDNA sampling. Some times I feel like science does not want the public to know the truth about this creature's DnA.
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, ShadowBorn said: Some times I feel like science does not want the public to know the truth about this creature's DnA I have to say it would be an interesting thing to know. No harm in asking Personally, I know of one scientist who had a personal encounter when young. they told me they would be open to giving some input and answering some questions if I had any. But like most scientists their work and life keeps them busy so correspondence comes slowly. At least it's good to know the scientists are out there because I was informed that there are others that are interested in the subject. In this regard persistence and research into finding this kind of professional intersest and open-mindedness has paid off. Even though contact is sporadic at times. What I did say was that myself and some other field researchers supported the scientist and would let them know about our continuing efforts and what we find. This particular scientist was very happy to know that and looks forward to updates. This kind of relationship with scientists can happen and they are out there. I would venture to say that even if a scientist wasn't a believer or a knower that they might still appreciate what field researchers have to offer as far as any hard data. Bigfoot, after all, is a curious subject even if only a scientific what-if kind of past time. They also seem to appreciate people who take an interest in their work if they are in a discipline that is close to the subject. One thing's for sure, by profession, they will give an honest straight answer to any questions. I'm thinking of trying to open a dialogue with a primatologist about the effectiveness of ape pheromone chips. Maybe someone at a zoo? Because getting these kinds of answers is what research OUT of the field is all about so that ideas and methods can be taken INTO the field. Edited June 12, 2021 by hiflier
MIB Posted June 12, 2021 Moderator Posted June 12, 2021 On 6/11/2021 at 7:18 AM, vinchyfoot said: Yet they are different things. If you want the critter recognized as real, science will have a say. Science isn't a religion, it's applied learning, maybe subject to its own internal politics, but name an industry or similar that isn't. Untrue. That is the ideal, not the reality. There is a difference between big-s "Science" and little-s "science". What you are describing is little-s "science", the process, but what we are confronted with is big-s "Science", the institutions and their priests we call "Scientists." It is pretty clear that in this instance they are more interested in preserving the current belief paradigm than they are in exploring / seeking new knowledge. That makes them priests of a religion, not scientists. There is no such thing as settled science, that makes it religion, dogma which cannot, by "rule", be examined by scientific processes else the person doing the examining is a heretic to the religion. I am in the camp with Huntster ... I just want to see (another) one, this time for a longer period with time to study. I'm not interested in trying to shove proof down the throats of people who wish not to accept existence. That has never been one of my needs. MIB 1 2
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 (edited) Oh, I don't know, it's pretty much the reality, though not perfect. Edited June 12, 2021 by hiflier
hiflier Posted June 12, 2021 Posted June 12, 2021 14 hours ago, hiflier said: Ah, I see. Leave everything up to one person. Make sure they stay isolated and without any help from the community. Yeah, that;s the ticket, that'll get things done. Unless of course the ploy is to make sure things DON'T get done but instead remain the same? MIB told me one time that the reason I don't make headway with F&W or the scientific world is because I'm just one random person. And yet anyone who tries to reach out for help gets tossed onto that same pile, isolated and going it alone for the truth. I know the resistance hand. I tried to do things, but this Forum is just so much dead weight. Members like Wooly Booger and I get turned into the bad guys for wanting the truth to become public. And I've seen every excuse in the book for why Sasquatch won't be discovered. None of it useful for anything but making sure people that do want public discovery get squashed down and unassisted in any move toward that end. What no one really clearly explains is why that is when official recognition could happen for the most incredible creature modern man could ever know. Science could do this but no one will lift a finger to make it happen. I would say that Wooly Booger is a respected member of the scientific community who would like public discovery. Let the Forum know why you don't give two hoots. Try not to sugar it up too much, okay? Yeah, no doubt someone didn't like that.
MIB Posted June 12, 2021 Moderator Posted June 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, hiflier said: I have to say it would be an interesting to know. Agree .. I, too, am curious 'bout the DNA. Not from the sense of proving existence, but from the sense of understanding.
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