Story Of Bf And A Hermit College Professor

[BobbyO]

Can you provide for me an estimate of the number of such cases that qualify as habituations according to your criteria? Can you then provide for me an estimate of the number of such cases that have resulted in the collection of physical evidence to corroborate the stories? The answer will be contained in the ratio of the former to the latter.

A question is asked to you, & your answer to it is 2 questions, both asking someone to do something for you, that might give them their answer to their question, depending on what they know !!!!

You've gotta love it..

[Guest RayG]

The Fred Beck story comes to mind.

Of course, here's where hard core skeptics enter with their very predictable line of, "but that's just a story".

Or they point out that Beck thought sasquatches came from another dimension, that he thought of himself as psychic, saw visions, and regarded the time spent at Mt. St. Helens as a series of psychic experiences*. The kind of stuff he never mentioned when interviewed by bigfoot researchers.

(I nearly wrote his name as Beckjord because both men had similar beliefs regarding themselves and bigfoot.)

RayG

* Bigfoot!: The True Story of Apes in America, page 50, by Loren Coleman

Edited October 7, 2010 by RayG

[Huntster]

Huntster, on 05 October 2010 - 09:48 AM, said:

The Fred Beck story comes to mind.

Of course, here's where hard core skeptics enter with their very predictable line of, "but that's just a story".

Or they point out that Beck thought sasquatches came from another dimension, that he thought of himself as psychic, saw visions, and regarded the time spent at Mt. St. Helens as a series of psychic experiences*. The kind of stuff he never mentioned when interviewed by bigfoot researchers.

Musta' been. Never heard that crap before.

Is Beck still around to sue for this slander?

(I nearly wrote his name as Beckjord because both men had similar beliefs regarding themselves and bigfoot.)

Your special relationship with Beckjord aside, I am skeptical of the accusation you level or forward.

[Drew]

Is Beck still around to sue for this slander?

Why would RayG sue Fred Beck for slander?

[Guest]

A question is asked to you, & your answer to it is 2 questions, both asking someone to do something for you, that might give them their answer to their question, depending on what they know !!!!

You've gotta love it..

Since when does a PhD provide a straight answer? It's almost never in my experience (ask my wife!), but it's because the people asking the questions often don't realize how complex they really are.

My answer to the question had already been expressed both explicitly and implicitly. Such reports I regard as nonsense because there is absolutely no physical evidence to support them. If someone is having trouble understanding that position, then I can only assume that we're not understanding the premise in the same way. For example, some people may be under the impression that there is physical evidence to support such claims. As I am ignorant of any such evidence, I'm trying to determine if I have missed something. Branco's criteria for a "habituation" also come into play. If he/she agrees with me that there is no physical evidence supporting such stories, we may still differ in how big a problem that is. For example, if I think there are something like 10 good cases of habituations but by Branco's criteria there are only one or two, then the lack of evidence from my perspective is a bigger problem than it might be from Branco's.

See? Sometimes apparent double-speak is merely one person's attempt to understand an issue more clearly.

[Guest BitterMonk]

* Bigfoot!: The True Story of Apes in America, page 50, by Loren Coleman

It actually begins on page 49 and continues from there...

In his booklet Beck reveals that all his life, from early childhood on, he had numerous psychic experiences, many of them involving supernatural "people".He says that they found the mine they were working in 1924 through guidance from two "spiritual beings", one a buckskin-clad Indian, the other a woman after whom they would name their mine (Vander White).

Of the "apemen", Beck writes, "they are not entirely of this world...I was, for one, always conscious that we were dealing with supernatural beings and I know the other members of the party felt the same." Beck believes the creatures now known as Sasquatch or Bigfoot come from "another dimension" and are a link between human and animal consciousness. They are composed of a substance that ranges between the physical and the psychical, sometimes one more than the other, depending upon the degree of "materialization". Because of their peculiar nature none will ever be captured, nor will their bodies ever be found.

Fred Beck, as seen through the writing of his son, viewed the whole mining experience as spiritual, the thumping as poltergeist activity, and the Bigfoot as spirits. "Our time spent in Mt. St. Helens was a series of psychic experiences," he wrote. The booklet he wrote with his son is filled with Fred's thoughts on spirits, the spirit world, and flying saucers. Yes, UFO's. Beck tells of being a psychic, a "chairvoyant" [sic], and how he held spiritual meetings and "saw visions". Many have ignored-or forgotten-this other material.

from "Bigfoot! The True Story Of Apes In America" pages 49-50

Many have ignored-or forgotten-this other material.

I would add "never bothered to learn the full truth" to that list.

[Guest]

I just got a visual of three grown folks being drug behind one of those old Volks Wagon station wagons with the wood panels down a dirt road :-) Who were you planning on asking to be the test subjects?

Maybe a couple of friends. Perhaps real dead weight should be used though, as previously stated above. Maybe an engine or a couple of engine blocks. Hmmm...

[indiefoot]

Saskeptic,

What sort of evidence would you require of a person that claims a habituation scenario? Surely you wouldn't ask them to kill one of their hard won friends would you? Clear and convincing video, I've been told that some was shot at a habituation site in Kentucky. It seems to have been delayed by some sort of litigation from what I hear again. Of course you never know about things you hear.

So if that video does come out it might change your mind about so called habituation scenarios? It might also tell a few people who are intent on adding a Bigfoot to their list of kills where to set up their tree stand.

[georgerm]

Since when does a PhD provide a straight answer? It's almost never in my experience (ask my wife!), but it's because the people asking the questions often don't realize how complex they really are.

My answer to the question had already been expressed both explicitly and implicitly. Such reports I regard as nonsense because there is absolutely no physical evidence to support them. If someone is having trouble understanding that position, then I can only assume that we're not understanding the premise in the same way. For example, some people may be under the impression that there is physical evidence to support such claims. As I am ignorant of any such evidence, I'm trying to determine if I have missed something. Branco's criteria for a "habituation" also come into play. If he/she agrees with me that there is no physical evidence supporting such stories, we may still differ in how big a problem that is. For example, if I think there are something like 10 good cases of habituations but by Branco's criteria there are only one or two, then the lack of evidence from my perspective is a bigger problem than it might be from Branco's.

See? Sometimes apparent double-speak is merely one person's attempt to understand an issue more clearly.

Let's not paint such a bleak picture of habituation. As you know the scientific method is at play and starts somewhere such as reports that describe common elements which gets the interest of a primate PHD. Yes, the process of proof is still at a primary stage lacking hard evidence such as hair, DNA, etc. Habituation reports keep turning up which describe 7' tall primates, that have long arms, sagital crest, etc. If reports are fabricated, then each primate would take on different characteristics. A reporting conspiracy is doubtful where witnesses fabricate stories based on a preformed common standard.

Thomas Powell describes two habituation cases in his book the Locals. One takes place on an Oregon farm and he collected footprints and other evidence. The other case takes place with small children somewhere in the central USA. When cases with common elements keep showing up, you must admit it is the beginning for proving BF habituations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3]

The word empirical denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment.[1] A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses.

We already have indirect observations and experiences so the next step is for primate PHDs to be bold and acquire funding for field work.

[Guest]

What sort of evidence would you require of a person that claims a habituation scenario?

How about a photo, some hairs, or a pile of poop?

Surely you wouldn't ask them to kill one of their hard won friends would you?

No, it's situational, though. For example, Ostman is regarded by some as a habituation, but he didn't work to develop it, he was kidnapped. Seeing as how it was supposedly in the 1920s when he had his experience, it would be silly to expect a photo from him. He had firepower, but apparently was disinclined to shoot one. So we really can't expect much from a guy like Ostman. What about some others?

This thread began with a story of a guy who did work to habituate a bigfoot and at one point claimed to have one in his car. He could get one in his car but couldn't get a single photo? Or how 'bout that "Enoch" thing? This is supposedly an ongoing habituation, but there are no photos from this? No hairs? Such stories raise flags and should raise eyebrows, even among folks 100% convinced that such creatures are real.

Clear and convincing video, I've been told that some was shot at a habituation site in Kentucky. It seems to have been delayed by some sort of litigation from what I hear again.

"Litigation." Yeah, that's it.

"People say believe half of what you see; some or none of what you hear."

So if that video does come out it might change your mind about so called habituation scenarios?

If it's any good, of course it would change my mind. Don't let Huntster and Mulder sway you with all this "denialist" stuff. We denialists aren't in the habit of ignoring bigfoot evidence, we're simply not convinced that what a lot of folks consider bigfoot evidence is actually evidence of bigfoot. I would be thrilled to change my tune about that, and so would pretty much every denialist/skeptic out there.

[Huntster]

Huntster, on 06 October 2010 - 06:41 PM, said:

Is Beck still around to sue for this slander?

Why would RayG sue Fred Beck for slander?

He would more likely attack the source of the derogatory information which was published after his death by Coleman. Ray is just citing the allegations, and leaving a citation as a source.

Surely, you understood that, right? Didn't you see Ray's citation?

[Guest]

If reports are fabricated, then each primate would take on different characteristics.

Why would you think that? If the person reported something that didn't look like a bigfoot, it wouldn't be reported as a bigfoot.

When cases with common elements keep showing up, you must admit it is the beginning for proving BF habituations.

No I mustn't, because common elements in anecdotal accounts are not necessarily indicative of the veracity of those accounts.

[Guest]

If it's any good, of course it would change my mind. Don't let Huntster and Mulder sway you with all this "denialist" stuff. We denialists aren't in the habit of ignoring bigfoot evidence, we're simply not convinced that what a lot of folks consider bigfoot evidence is actually evidence of bigfoot. I would be thrilled to change my tune about that, and so would pretty much every denialist/skeptic out there.

Not so fast. I'm willing to bet that a LARGE portion of those skeptical of Bigfoot are skeptical because of deeply held personal beliefs of life itself, beliefs that we're not allowed to discuss here. A good video and/or proof would shake up a lot of people in a non-scientific kind of way. Spiritually, you could say. I better stop there.

Just trying to make a point that not all skeptics or denialists would be thrilled.

[Guest]

For the record a new primate would have no reason to shake anyone up spiritually. It would just be another ape. It wouldn't shake things up any more than any other ancient bipedal ape finds.

Homo Erectus would have caused a bigger stir.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Colossus

[indiefoot]

Thanks for the reply Saskeptic, I appreciate both your knowledge and honesty in sharing it.

Any "habituator" who makes public their "habituation" and then doesn't follow up with any evidence is asking to get beat up on a BF forum. Some people have been waiting a long time for "real" evidence to come along. I can't imagine how frustrated they must get when verification is dangled in front of them.

I don't believe the OP's story, but I enjoyed the read. What I took away from the story is that "habituation" of any "wild thing" isn't always in their best interest.

I don't "believe" stories unless I get a chance to know the story teller. Then I can decide whether to take them at their word.