Missing 411

[chelefoot]

Oh, they were there. There were pictures of them there in our local paper.

http://www.knoxnews.com/photos/galleries/2009/jun/26/scenes-search-dennis-martin/

[Guest Darrell]

I do stand corrected. BTW, it looks like there were approx 8 SF personnel there. They would have come down from Ft Bragg since their beret flashes show they are from the JFKSWC. 

[chelefoot]

I saw 8 in that one picture. The book says there were 80. I would have to do more research to verify that. They were said to have come in as a "military operation, complete with a headquarters, a commanding general, squad leaders, and a mass of privates". They were also armed.

 

 

Just something odd about the whole story.

[Guest Darrell]

^ well there aint no privates in SF. Here again, I think Paulides is taking some artisitc license with his accounts. You also would'nt have a general officer running 80 SF troopies. But hey, the koolaide is sweet around here.

[chelefoot]

I'm reading the books. My opinion of their credibility is still in question. So, I'll pass on the Koolaid for now.

[Guest Darrell]

 They were also armed.

 

 

 

That in itself isnt strange as the SF contingent were probably using the SAR as a practical field exercise and per SOP would carry their basic load out which would include weapons. But, all the pics of the SF troops dont show them with weapons. Things were done a lot different 40 plus years ago and they may have even been packing personally owned weapons. Anyway, just a counter point. Cant believe everything you read.

[Guest]

The park service report says the SF were already in the area for training; the local tv news wanted to know why they weren't involved in searching for the kid, and boom! Change of mission. I'll try to find the link. There was nothing sinister or conspiratorial, and it was hardly a secretive mission, as evidenced by the photos and fact that the media was aware of their presence.

[Guest Rex]

The book says the National Guard and Green Berets were there.

"Forty Special Forces (Green Berets) form the Third Army Headquarters in Fort Benning, GA were requested and dispatched.."

 

"Forty additional Green Berets would arrive later in the week."

 

green berets".. AKA US ARMY Special Forces are NOT at Ft Benning, we were and have always been at Bragg.

Never a part of "third ARMY" either... ever, always under USSOCOM, 1st SOCOM to be exact.

 

 5th Group and 7th Group were  At Ft Bragg until 1987 when 3rd Group was stood up.. 5th then moved to Ft Cambell KY.

 

"Two Huey helicopters from the Air Force were requested and dispatched"....

 

The "Air Force" does not use rotary wing assets... that is the domain of the other branches. When the ARMY/AIR CORPS split there were strict adherences to types of aircraft that each could operate.. you will not see any jet aircraft under US ARMY control either.

 

The coast Guard was also there.

 

They may have been....

 

 

Who did all the requesting of these guys I wonder...

 

  Seems to me the actual FACTS were not very well researched and there was a bit of ad hoc toss together going on there..IMO.

 i have not read the books or paid a lot of attention to this entire arena but if all of it it written like the above sections...  i would find myself tearing the guy apart as well for his lack of fact checking and just making things up as he goes along.

 

 

[Guest Rex]

Oh, they were there. There were pictures of them there in our local paper.

http://www.knoxnews.com/photos/galleries/2009/jun/26/scenes-search-dennis-martin/

 

I have looked at the pics..

 

It seems this was a National Guard SF unit.. not Regular ARMY.

 

I cannot tell which because the pics are black and white and I cannot make out the colors on the flashes.

 

Also the group photo shows a whole group of them with what I find to be interesting situations.. number one: NONE of them have a combat patch on their right shoulder.. this was in 1969 and the viet-nam war was raging, there should have been at least one that had one combat tour at that time.

 

Second: None of them are qualified, they are not tabbed.  One would think in a group that size that was operational at least half would be.

 

Very strange. I have a feeling this was part of the support element of a National Guard SF company at the time.

 

To answer your question as to "who" called THEM in... the governor.

I do stand corrected. BTW, it looks like there were approx 8 SF personnel there. They would have come down from Ft Bragg since their beret flashes show they are from the JFKSWC. 

 

 

Actually those flashes do not... they are backward, looking at the 5th group flash (which I wore) ..  the stripes are running the wrong diagonal.. The only other flash under the puzzle palace stateside at the time was 7th group and theirs was solid red.

 

NG units had a variety and the stripes on the flash ran opposite to differentiate them from regular ARMY.

 

Those guys were not under SOCOM. They were national Guard.

^ well there aint no privates in SF. Here again, I think Paulides is taking some artisitc license with his accounts. You also would'nt have a general officer running 80 SF troopies. But hey, the koolaide is sweet around here.

 

 

 

 

 

LOL ..      that.. in red was going to be my next response...LMAO.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Rex

[Guest]

The official park service report on the Martin search: http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/062109martinreport.pdf

The Special Forces are discussed at the bottom of page four. WFSC-TV is who suggested the park service call the SF for help.

Coast guard training materials regarding Martin search: http://www.uscg.mil/tcyorktown/ops/sar/inland/Docs/DennisMartinReadAhead.pdf

Interestingly, it says Martin was in a special ed class and had some developmental delays/disabilities.

[Guest Cervelo]

This seems to be relevant....

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/outdoor-skills/survival/Catch-Me-If-You-Can-20120801.html

[Guest Darrell]

Rex, You are right in most of your accounts, except IIRC, Special Forces qualified soldiers didnt actually wear a tab unitl the 80's. And the beret flash in one of the pics pretty much matches the flash the cadre at the JFCSWC wear.  12th, 19th, and 20th SFG (Abn) wich are the USAR and ARNG SF groups wear a flash thats quite different. Anyway, the most plausible explanation is that an ODA team was doing some bush time and got rolled up in the search. That would explain the weapons. That would also explain the lack of combat patches as they could have been in training or in a reserve SF group. God, I sure dont miss Bragg this time of year.

[JanV]

This seems to be relevant....

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/outdoor-skills/survival/Catch-Me-If-You-Can-20120801.html

Yes, it is. Very interesting.

My complaint with the Missing 411 books was the author's dismissal of all the SAR research that has become available regarding behaviors exhibited by lost persons.

I think his case would have been far more powerful had he acknowledged what is known about behavior patterns and focused on the elements that would make a disappearance stand out as truly unusual. He attributes too much mystery to common behaviors.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks Cervelo, for the link.

[chelefoot]

All of the info you guys provide is very interesting. Thanks for the responses.

 

If he was autistic, that would not surprise me at all. It is a danger that parents of autistic children today are very aware of. I've read much about it, sent to me from a friend with an autistic son. 

 

Regarding his fact checking, he actually came here to research this and other cases. Not so sure it was poor fact checking or intentional sensationalism.

[Guest Rex]

Rex, You are right in most of your accounts, except IIRC, Special Forces qualified soldiers didnt actually wear a tab unitl the 80's. And the beret flash in one of the pics pretty much matches the flash the cadre at the JFCSWC wear.  12th, 19th, and 20th SFG (Abn) wich are the USAR and ARNG SF groups wear a flash thats quite different. Anyway, the most plausible explanation is that an ODA team was doing some bush time and got rolled up in the search. That would explain the weapons. That would also explain the lack of combat patches as they could have been in training or in a reserve SF group. God, I sure dont miss Bragg this time of year.

 

 

June 1983

 

 

Yes you are right.. pardon me I was up all night and it was early / late.

 

 This is the flash from training group (JFKSWC):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/USAJFKSWCS_flash.gif

 

 I still think that was a support element from one of the NG groups.  i am not thinking ODA.. too much going on in SE Asia at that time.I trained guys from both 19th (solid blue) and 20th.. (reversed striping red on green). that flash looks like a NG flash.

 

 We may never know..LOL

 

 I don't miss Bragg or Campbell ANY time of the year.

 

 When i was there with 5th I was over off deglopper in the WWII barracks north east of division up on the hill.

 

Spent a few years in Division as well, 2/325..  Miss?.. Bragg??

 No i do not miss area J, i do not miss manchester, i do not miss green ramp, Pope.. sicily, salerno, Holland,  Sainte-Mère-Église  0-dark thirty C-130 bombing runs, range 41, Mott Lake, McKellers Lodge, camp Mackall, pine pollen, deer ticks, not quite frozen weeks in the field, EDREs, DRF, cq, on call... not one darn bit of ANY of it.

 

Can you tell?