Operation Persistence

[Guest]

You do realize, god rest his soul, that Stubstad was an asphalt engineer and that this was a hobby for him. He used excel spread sheets instead of the programs requiring complex algorithms to draw his conclusions. I can't speak to the other samples but have you seen any results in person? Or did you just hear this somewhere? I'm not aware of any bigfoot samples that have published DNA results period. At this point, I quit guessing and just go with the "nothing" we have.

Edited October 8, 2012 by CTfoot

[Hairy Man]

Yeah, cause it's modern human samples they are sending in...not wood apes-bigfoot-sasquatch samples.

So OS, gotta ask you a question. Say aliens come down to earth...they have a head, two arms, two legs, walk on two legs and are hairless. Are they human?

[Guest]

according to monster quest the snelgrove dna turned out to be fungus.

[Guest OntarioSquatch]

So OS, gotta ask you a question. Say aliens come down to earth...they have a head, two arms, two legs, walk on two legs and are hairless. Are they human?

I would say that depends on what the DNA comes back as

[Guest]

chimps---------------------------------------------------------------------wood apes--people--aliens

wow, are we off topic...

[Guest]

I have a few questions for the people in the possible hoaxer camp . Do you think that there are groups of hoaxers operating independently , and without knowledge of each other ? If not how would you explain the continued hoaxing after the first shot was fired ? Do you have any idea what it takes to continue to do something while being shot at ? You need a few things in my experience . You need a sense of duty . You need training . You need leadership . I needed a bond with others I can't even begin to articulate . A feeling that I owed someone so much that I had to ignore extremely strong urges to get out of there , NOW ! I also needed to see others push on around me . Did it ever get easier with experience ? Not in the least . Even people with all of that going for them it is far from uncommon for them to break . You say who can figure what motivates a hoaxer .Maybe it doesn't matter what motivates them to start a hoax . What could possibly motivate a hoaxer to continue once the first shot is fired ? Look at any situation where people continue any activity where they are being shot at . It is readily apparent what motivates them . Can any of you give any good guess , even what that could possibly be in this situation ? Then there is the physical hardship of a suit to consider . My only experience is with MOPP gear <mission oriented protective posture> used to protect you from chemical and biological warfare . Once again the only thing that keeps a person in something like that is discipline or self preservation instinct . In anything like the environment described .

Bipto , hairyman I want to thank you for the patience and willingness to share . I wonder HM , can you share anything about the charging incidents ? I also really appreciate the effort and care made in clearly stating what are assumptions ,and observations . I am not sure I agree with all of the conclusions reached by your group . I do respect the way they are presented . I also find your reasons for limiting your answers to almost every question you have chosen to do so valid . I have found your reasoning in every situation valid , except one . I have carefully read every single post in this thread . I was amazed at how long bipto continued to answer the hoax questions . The only thing I find hard to understand is the "what lab was the specimen sent to" question being unanswered . I do not think it is an indication of dishonesty . Someone said something like Bipto dodged the question . I think Bipto was emotionally engaged in the hoaxing theory at the stage the lab was brought up . I think Bipto was fed up with hoaxing theory <and by association this entire thread> when the lab was brought up again . This is all assumption on my part , but I don't think you,meaning HM, has read the posts concerning the lab . I was wondering HM could you please make an effort to find out the name of the lab ? I have no idea what kind of money is involved .If the cost is anything like dna to establish paternity . It would be a good public service to name them < certainly not a duty> . I will never send anything to anyone for dna testing . I am asking because it is the only flaw in what I found to be compelling testimony . I am heading to download the podcasts now . I loved Biptos sense of humor when answering some questions I would not have responded to as many times as he did . I know what being shot at is all about . I know what kind of people it takes to reach the level of discipline that these hoaxers would need . I understand field craft and logistics . Hoaxing in my opinion , is just not going to happen . Every possible scenario put forth just simply ignores human nature . The most plausible one put forth , the inside job . Still ignores what a person is willing to endure . You would need every single person who could possibly be involved to be in on the hoax . I found one posters insistence that it was hoax kind of puzzling when he insisted it was not possible to be anything else because Bigfoot don't exist . What is the point of a hoax in a remote place that everyone is in on ? The man is far better educated than I am . Probably alot smarter too . He does not understand field craft , logistics , or willingly placing yourself repeatedly and knowingly in mortal danger .

Edited October 8, 2012 by orygundewd

[Guest]

Ok, this whole thread has just become ridiculous!

Do any of you have any idea why nobody besides Bipto or Hairyman ever comment on this forum? Because of this sillyness. This is just like the conversation over at JREF, except you are all BF believers. Seriously, it is as though none of you have nothing better to do then outwit the last comment posted. WTF?.

I am with the TBRC (Ken Helmer, MD). None of you know me. Why? I don't want you to. I only included my name because on the TBRC forum tomorrow, there will be questions as to who Mayo2 is.

I and TBRC members are not interested in fame, glory, being on the "Finding Bigfoot" show, money, being an internet sensation, or anything else! We are interested in collecting a specimen to end the mystery. Go look at the TBRC webpage. Their aren't even ads on it. Why? Because we forbid them.

We are not a Lindsay, Melba, Moneymaker, Wayne, or Dallas, or anyone else who now wants to be a famous bigfooter. We do not armchair the forums, and do not solicit notoriety.

We are trying to solve a mystery. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me just say, that what we are trying to do in X is not easy. And for SouthernYahoo, yes Branson thinks they are humans, but he also thinks that aliens put them there. read about it.

We just still call it X because it is in the area.

I have been in "X" much more than Bipto and Hairyman, and while I appreciate their disposition on trying to answer some of your questions, I can no longer stand to lurkingly watch this nonsense.

Our research area, which will not be compromised by answering any questions as to near where it is, is very, very remote and no other humans other then property owners go there. EVER. In regards to hoaxing. Just silly. For three months straight we had activity. At 7 am, at 12 pm, at 5 pm, at 930 pm, at midnight, at 2am, at 430 am. All times of the day and night. For months straight. We would leave for a week or two and come back for the weekend, and it would start again. Mind you, there is no water, no electricity, no phone service, nothing. So for a group of people to stay there for months on end day AND night, in this rough terrain, is ridiculous. And for what purpose? Which blogs have you seen people bosting about hoaxing us? Oh we are hoaxing ourselves? Hard to do. Only 4 people allowed at one time, by our own rules so that we ALWAYS know where everyone is. And we always go in pairs. Not to mention that we all have families and jobs, so with only about 20 investigators who are allowed in there, I guess we all just be pulling each others legs for a good hoax. And not laughing to each other about it.

We have had 10 or so investigators have sightings. Black, Brown, Reddish, Grey, Black, and different sizes. {Oh, and the big Grey one has been seen several times. And that is his 6 inch hair that is spoken about). To hoax us needs several different costumes and several diffent hieghts of people. And brave people, who are willing to perform a hoax down the barrel of a very large.45-70 rifle, 24-7 for 3 months. I am still waiting for these people to start their website/blog/youtube video about "how we fooled the TBRC". Please PM me when it comes out.

We don't devuldge much info because you guys just rip it to shred, again, trying to outdo the last poster. What if I tell you we hear them clucking? On this forum I will get 4 pages of birds that can cluck, or frogs or whatever. No mind that we have heard this many times in close proximity followed by rocks thrown or large animals running away. Guess its bears.

What about whistles? Well it's a bird you say. What about growls? Well it's a bear. What about wood knocks, five seconds after we do one? Well it's a gun shot. But there where 4 knocks from different direction. Must have been a group of hunters. There is always an excuse to why its not what we know it is.

We are not interested in devuldging much info because it comes with so much ridicule. These forums serve no purpose in our end goal. If you want to be a part of us you are more than welcome to join, though, mind you, that we only allow people to become full investigators who we learn to trust with our own lives and are responsible. Not because we are high and mighty, only because this is a dangerous game we are playing, and we don't want hoaxers, inexperienced woodsman, or people prone to see bigfoots in every shadow or think every twig snap or sound is a woodape.

On the part of taking a specimen. Please, please, please get off the notion (those of you who are on it) that we are taking pop shots at every twig snap in the woods. Lets start with Daryl Colyer last year. Not only is he a well experienced hunter, he is also a well experienced concealed handgun license carrier, who practices routinely. He knows gun safety. I have been around him extensively and he knows if his barrel ever crosses my body I will punch him right in the jaw. Daryl knows to idntify a target. Last year he did. And he saw a 7 ft tall, reddish/orange ape. He took the shot. Mistakenly, we had thought that a shotgun with buck shot as the first few rounds would allow us to hit the animal through the thick foliage and incapacitate it, and then follow up with slugs. Which is how his weapon was loaded. Unfortunately, that was not the case. After the first shot was taken, the ape ran off so fast that he tried to hit it with his following shots. Examination of the area showed several buck shot rounds in the tree right behind were the wood ape was, and slugs embedded in trees and branches near the initial shot. Tracks were found of the ape in the direction it ran. Later we found drops of blood on rocks in a creek a hundred or so yards away. Our first attempt at DNA analysis failed. Why? Not sure. We gave them the sample with the least blood on it, and these rocks with blood hat sat in 100 degree temps for several days before discovery so it may have been degreaded. We only have 3 more samples and instead of wasting them on just any old lab we are waiting to see if Dr. Sykes is the real deal and can do anything with them. We are in no hurry. Last thing we want to do is waste them. FYI, there were many more blood splatters down that creek, many more, but on very large and heavy rocks. And on discovery, there was only one person in the field. All he could carry was the samples we have. We sent another team in to retrieve the rest, but it rained before they got there and were no longer present. (Key in here the members of the hoaxing party...see, we have lives and can't always be there for everything, otherwise all of us would have ran down there, but we were all afraid if we went AWOL from our jobs we might get fired and not be able to support our families).

Ok, lets talk about how easy it is to take a specimen. It's not! I have seen two. The first one was after dark about 2 hrs after I arrived. I was sitting with 3 others and one of us noticed large green eyes relfecting in the fire light behind us. It was 20 yrds away in the brush/tree line. None of us expected this or were prepared. It was the beginning of Op. Endurance. I had just unloaded my gear. After the eyeshine was noticed, two of us turned on our wimpy headlamps on our caps. We didn't expect that the two large green eyes would stand up to 7 1/2 - 8 ft. Once I saw it rising, I ran to my truck just behind me to get my Q beam. Another member went to the tree line with his shotgun which was on him at the time. He was the only one with a weapon. When I opened my truck, it blinded everyone behind the truck (which is where everyone was at), because of the lights on the bed and tail lights. The ape walked away and the guys could see it looking back at them while it walked away and could hear it. Members went to the brush line, but it was already on its way up the mountain side. Then another ape from behind us started throwing rocks at us. We turned our attention to that one. The the first one started throwing rocks at us. All we ever saw once I got the Q beam out (which I had in the truck charging) was the original apes eye shine about 60 yrds up the mountain. We eventually gave up as it was pitch black out and retired to the back of the trucks again and sat to talk about it. That's when a large rock smashed the top of the shed 30 ft from us.

Don't ask any questions about why you didn't go up the mountainside after it. On level ground it was already way up the mountain in the time we walked 20 yrds.

Second sighting I was in a blind in a spot where we have had multipe sightings. I heard a loud "whoop" from behind me. Wasn't sure if it was the only two other guys there with me who I had asked to walk around my blind, as we have noticed that these critters do follow us at a distance. I heard something walk off. 15 minutes later, I saw a larger 7-8 ft large, jet black sasquatch step out from behind a tree on the bank of the creek I was posted on. It took a side step from the left to right and looked right at me. It was about 70 yrds away. Very broad shoulders, so much so that its body was in the shape of a V. In which its waist was smaller then it's shoulders, which were broad. And I could see space between its arms and its body. It then stepped away to the right. I knew our guys were in the area and in fact were 5 minutes before just in that same spot. But they were in Camo and after replicating it, it was very clear they were in camo and not jet black and (sorry guys) those two were fatter then this animal. The one I saw was very muscular and V shaped. The reason I tell you this, is because I WAS ARMED. I do not shot at anything, just because. I knew what I saw was a wood ape, but my first thoughts were to be sure. I thought, that's a sasquatch, can't be those guys. Just then the same large, jet black, muscular, V shaped ape stepped back from behind a tree, now from right to left, up on the bank in the same spot as before and leaned slightly forward and looked straight at me. Then it stepped to the right again and was gone. Now I knew for certain it was a sasquatch and I raised my rifle and put the scope right in the area and thought to my self that if it steps back again I am taking him. But he never did.

To abate some questions...we had a plot watcher camera in the same vicinity. It caught both team members about 30 ft behind the sighting, but they walked straight away from the creek and never stopped. The camera was not in field of view of the sighting as the wood ape was about 30 yrds just to the right and behind the cameras field of view.

My opinion is the ape was following them. Two days before another member in the same spot as me witnessed a member being followed by the grey ape.

Point! I had two 6 second observations. The time between them was around 5 seconds. The first time, I was assessing the target, my guys or an ape. I made the determination rather quickly as I knew their clothing, stature, body habitus. It wasn't them, but the ape stepped away. Now I'm amazed as it is my first real clear sighting. I do not expect it to step back into view. It does. Now I am freaked out because it looks right at me...straight down the creek...and 15 minutes earlier one whooped right behind me.. I think, either there is one still behind me, or this one was watching me and now he is checking on me. Then he steps away. Mind you this is all happening quickly, now my mind is certain that it is an ape. I have identified my target. I raise my rifle and put the scope in that spot. If it steps back into view I am going to take the specimen, I think to myself, but it never does.

Shortly thereafter, I rendevouis with the two members and confirm that they were never on that creek embankment and exfiled out of it without ever looking back at me, and in fact never saw me or tried to look where I was at.

Point of all of this is that we in the TBRC are not randomly taking pop shots at upright humonoids. I know all of these members very closeely and no shot will EVER be taken without confirmation. I missed my chance, but that is OK.. Yes, there can be random people enter this area and we are all VERY aware of that, although a slim chance, it is possible.

Subject of cameras. Guess what, 6 minutes before my sighting the gopro camera's card filled up. I dont' wear them anymore and I don't even carry one. My sighting even with a photo would have been a blobsquatch. I think most of us except for those who are cameramen in general, don't even bother. I know my camear and video recorder is only to record a specimen.

Last thing. Being human. They are NOT! Let me tell you what we have seen/or heard that is ape like. 1.) Lots of hair on their entire bodies. Indiginous people in the amazon haven't grown a body full of hair, nor have other indigenous peoples. 2.) Some are huge. 8 ft-800-1000 lbs. That's not Homo sapiens. 3)We have recorded audio of rumbling which gorillas do in dense forests to alert others of their location. 4) Quadrapedal locomotion. Our members have witnessed. Not a Homo sapian preferred means of locomotion. 5.) panting and hooting. 6.) whooping. 7) climbing trees. They have never walked up waiving their arms signifiying "hey, hey lets meet each other". Yet they spend hours throwing rocks at us, while we throw rocks back at them, never concerned that we all have weapons on us.

Oh, your next question will be "why don't you see them with a thermal or NV?". Night vision is worthless in thich brush/forest. You cannont see past the first part of vegetation. Thermal, though better, is just as difficult, because every leaf between you and them blocks the heat signature. Yes, we have seen them with thermal, and just as quick they are in vegetation where we can't see them. Go after them and they are deeper in vegetation or up the mountain and you can no longer see them. If the ape is 50 yrds up the mountain at night in the pitch black, it will take us 5 minutes to get up there, the ape is already way gone.

Just so you all know I may or may not ever come back here to answer any questions posted, because, to be honest, I have no real desire to debate all of this. I have lurked for 6 yrs, but rarely post, if your questions are civil I'll answer nicely.

Oh and let me answer the DNA labs question. We gave them our worst sample, with just a smidgeon of blood. They couldn't find anything. It had also sat on a hot rock in 100 degree temps for days before collection.

If you do your research you willl know that hot temps and UV light degrade DNA.

We won't say the lab, because we don't need them harassed. They did what they where asked to do. It didn't work.

no hard feelings.

Edited October 11, 2012 by See-Te-Cah NC
Edited at the request of the member

[Guest joename]

I see the necessity of gathering a sample, that's for sure. It sounds like it's only a matter of time before area X provides one. I feel for those on the TBRC that feel they have to defend their positions to the haters and such, but I'm glad they do. I think the work they are doing will go down in history as a perfect example of how like minded individuals joined together to prove the existance of wood apes. Disregard the haters, they are going to hate no matter what. Please continue to share your remarkable accounts from Operation Persitence.

[Incorrigible1]

Thanks for the update, Mayo. Carry on and best of luck in your endeavors.

[dopelyrics]

Mayo2 - wow. Thank you. Great post, very, very interesting.

I will ask you this - I have asked the others, but understand if you don't answer:

After your sightings - do you believe there are any photos/video evidence currently in the public domain that shows a Wood Ape?

Best regards,

Lee

Edited October 8, 2012 by dopelyrics

[spacemonkeymafia]

Very good post Mayo. Based on my research experience , the things I have seen and heard are very similar to yours.

While there are many civil people here, "believers" and "skeptic" alike, I will not post my research at the moment.

I have enough headaches without adding something like what Bipto has had to put up with in this thread.

Keep up the good work TBRC. While I wouldn't want to be the one to harvest one, it looks like someone will at some point. To some DNA isn't going to be good enough. It will have to be a body.

[Guest VioletX]

Have any of your members drawn a picture of the woodapes?

Thank you for your lengthy post Mayo 2.

[Guest]

@ TRBC members

what is the farthest you guys can shoot there ? is there any places that you can set up on a power line or cut block?

if their is such a place, it would be advantageous for the group to use a .50 cal in those areas, with a little training,

u would easily cove up to 800 yds or more. That round will definitely bring one down.

[Drew]

Mayo- how many different members have actually fired their weapons to collect a specimen?

It seems you talk a lot of schmack about how well armed you are, but at 60 yards with a 45-70 wouldn't it be quite a simple shot to split the eyeshine? Unless you are unsure of the target's identity of course.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Drew

[Guest]

On another thread, I was listening to and commenting on supposed Sasquatch vocalizations. These sound like yells/howls. I am not convinced that a reclusive animal would give up its position by yelling unless it had a seriously good reason to be making a lot of noise. Has the TBRC heard anything resembling these sorts of reports in X? Hairy Man, Mayo, do you have any opinions you'd like to share regarding yells/howls? Is this an attempt at intimidation? Mating call? "I stubbed my toe!!!"