N A W A C - Field Study Discussion

[Guest]

Is Bigfoot elusive 100% of the time? Yes. OK, then why the rock throwing and howling?

Is Bigfoot elusive 95% of the time? Yes. OK, then we should have killed one or 12 by now.

What I'm saying is "bigfoot" isn't 100% of anything at any time. They're all individuals reacting in their individual ways according to what motivates them and their surroundings. Just like people (and other social animals). If one of them is hanging out by a state park campground, I would bet that it would act differently than another deep in the woods observing a lone pair of campers.

In X, I think some of them are comfortable enough with their surroundings to attempt to interact with us. They chuck a rock, we do something. We might get up and look, we might vocalize, we might even shine our lights around. That's what they want us to do, IMO. If we do nothing, though, they come closer. Become bolder. They want that interaction. They're very much like children in that regard. If you don't give them the "attention" they're looking for, they will try harder to get it.

Alternatively, sometimes, they only want to be close and observe. They'll get very close — 10 to 20 feet away, if cover allows. They'll sit there being totally silent and it's only as a result of our accidentally stirring them that we know they're there. This has happened many times (and to me several times). Note that often, if one is busted that close, another farther away will do something to draw your attention. This is known observed behavior.

Why are they sometimes quiet and watchful and other times loud and instigating? Because they're complicated like other primates.

Regarding vocalizations, I'm reminded of this:

Primates in the ape line of descent do not have cortical control of vocalizations. That is, they cannot choose when to vocalize or when not to; their vocal tract is under the control of the emotional part of the brain, the limbic system. Even chimpanzees are sometimes incapable of controlling their vocalizations, despite sharing more than 95 percent of our DNA. It is well known that some chimpanzees, even upon discovery of a food treat, cannot inhibit their vocalizations, which often attracts the interest of others. Some go to the extreme of covering their mouth with the hand to muffle their self-generated sounds.

Source.

Based on our observations and my personal experiences, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find they have a hard time controlling some vocalizations.

Finally, WRT to them being shot and killed, there are several accounts that suggest they have. I expect it has happened many times in the past. But not all animals that are shot and killed are collected or even found. One dead bigfoot does not equal a scientific question answered. It very much depends on who does the shooting and why.

Edited December 17, 2013 by bipto

[salubrious]

Right, because chucking rocks at stuff, and howling at intruders is indicative of a submissive status.

I understand what you are saying, however, if someone wants to say 'Bigfoot has not been found, because it is Elusive', this rock throwing/howling behavior is contradictory to that statement.  

 

Is Bigfoot elusive 100% of the time? Yes.  OK, then why the rock throwing and howling?

Is Bigfoot elusive 95% of the time? Yes.  OK, then we should have killed one or 12 by now.

 

Logic might be the problem here. What we know for sure is we really don't know anything about a BF- what motivates them, what does not. Seems to me the NAWAC knows as much as anyone, which in my surmise it not a lot. So one should be careful ascribing reason and logic here. It may not apply.

 

Its my opinion though that they *are* curious, and will allow interaction, but only on their terms.

 

[Guest]

Its my opinion though that they *are* curious, and will allow interaction, but only on their terms.

 

I think that's about right. 

[the parkie]

Bipto

Any chance of any further details on specific incidence(s) when someone suddenly became aware of one just ten or so feet away? I haven't listened to the last couple of podcasts, so apologies if any are detailed there.

That is tantalizingly and frustratingly close!

Thanks

Edited December 16, 2013 by the parkie

[Guest]

It's happened to me at least three times I can remember. All of these were at night, very dark.

 

The first time was the same night I heard (and felt) something large and bipedal walk up to the cabin and pull/push on it. I've related that story on the podcast. Earlier in the night, three of us were sitting near the fire. My truck was backed up into that area and I was sitting at the back of it in a camp chair. For no particular reason (other than I wanted to have some artificial light for a while), I decided to unlock the truck using its key remote. All the lights, including the headlights, lit up and, a split second later, a large THUMP happened immediately in front of my truck followed by the sounds of something running off through the bush. At the time, I wasn't sure what that was. It was very close and we had no idea. Based on later experiences, I now think that was a relatively small ape up a tree looking down and over the truck at what we were doing. The headlights likely scared the crap out of it. 

 

The second time was that same night. I walked around another of the trucks to get away from the fire so I could relieve myself (when in Rome...). As soon as I cleared the truck, a large animal about twelve or fifteen feet away turned and took off toward the mountain slope. The other guys came over to where I was to investigate and moments later a rock landed on the ground immediately behind us. It was thrown from the tree line on the other side of the fire, approximately 20 feet away. Along with the one spooked in front of my truck, that means they were on three sides of us and we had no idea. We never heard them approach. 

 

The third time was on my last trip. My tent was pitched near my truck which was blocking the area where I heard something drop from the tree before. As I approached the tent, I swerved over to the truck to drop some gear on the tailgate. As soon as I got to the truck, I heard from the bush just beyond it very clear and distinct foot steps away from me and deeper into the cover. CRUNCH, CRUNCH, CRUNCH. Followed by one of the strangest things I've experienced there. Whispered gibberish, so low I wasn't even sure I was hearing it (honestly couldn't believe I was hearing it). I've been truly freaked out in X about 4 or 5 times and that was one of them. Whatever was stepping back away from me and whispering gibberish couldn't have been more than ten or fifteen feet from me. 

 

As a group, we have many stories like this. They come close when they can. No doubt about it. 

[Painthorse]

I understand what you are saying, however, if someone wants to say 'Bigfoot has not been found, because it is Elusive', this rock throwing/howling behavior is contradictory to that statement.  

 

Is Bigfoot elusive 100% of the time? Yes.  OK, then why the rock throwing and howling?

Is Bigfoot elusive 95% of the time? Yes.  OK, then we should have killed one or 12 by now.

 I know this is just another "If you haven't experienced it, you won't understand it" post but.......I've had 3 very memorable rock throwing incidents, one back in the spring of 2006 late April/ early May. It was after 3 loud sharp metal on metal clank sounds coming from across from the front horse paddock. Long story short I witnessed a small bipedal thing that ran with it's chest bowed out, arms behind it that stayed stationary and legs that moved like a skier, the head never bobbed. Ran in the cabin to get my then 16 year old son and started walking the area. As we walked up and down the road that I own property on both sides of and also connects to the Ouachita national forest we both heard a "whizzing sound" of something coming through the trees and then a loud clunk sound. My son looked at me and said "that was a rock". We walked a couple more feet and it happened again. Several rocks were chucked and a smaller one just missed my head and landed in the road in  front of us, I still have it. We split up as we heard the wolves sounding off and my son thought that maybe the thing had made it's way back towards the cabin, I stayed at the hill and watched my son walk back towards the cabin when  he stopped and started pointing into the woods, I started slowly started walking towards him while looking into the woods and caught the rear side view of something leaping behind a large oak. When I stood next to my son and never taking my eyes off that tree I walked into the woods expecting to see it again behind that tree but there was NOTHING there. My son said for those few minutes he watched it play peek a boo, look out from one side of the tree and then the other at him. Neither one of us heard it walk away and have no idea how we were unable to see it leave that specific tree. It was starting to get dark so we walked back to the cabin and when we were just up in the yard we got showered by a hand full of smaller rocks some hitting the roof of my van and later observed by someone else that there were 2 rocks on the roof of my 2 story cabin.  So these creatures CAN BE ELUSIVE and chuck rocks. Did we see it actually chuck the rocks? No. Can I prove this happened? No. Myself and son both experienced this event. So again, unless it's experienced it's just......................... JMO, there is no answer as to why it did what it did. We could only assume it was being mischievious  or possibly curious as to how we would react. There are no answers to why they do what they do.  Why do some humans do evil things that the majority of us would never consider doing?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Painthorse

[the parkie]

Bipto and Painthorse,

Many thanks for the details, excellent reading. I love to hear of people's experiences with these creatures. If anyone reading this has any detailed experiences they would like to share please feel free to PM me!

Bipto

"I've been truly freaked out in X about 4 or 5 times and that was one of them." I have to ask, what were the other 3 or 4 times? Again a PM would be more than welcomed if you don't want to post here.

Thanks again.

[Guest]

Doesn't compute.

If you want to forestall conflict, you don't chuck rocks at people, and howl really loud near them.

This is a huge problem with the bigfoot reports.

You can't be elusive, AND huck rocks at people.

You can't be elusive, AND howl menacingly near people.

If you are elusive, you don't instigate conflict, or give away your position.

Of course Bigfoot can get away with it, and I am pretty sure I know why.

 

I think I know why. Nope, not because "It" doesn't exist (wrong answer). Witnesses that experience this behavior..either leave quickly ,or stay put and do not pursue the subject(s). When you see or hear of a pursuit, it is BS. Entertainment on TV , facebook, or forums. If you are actually in this situation, you still don't know the subject's position. If anyone actually had the stones to pursue, the subjects are more than capable of eluding . Sounds fantastic? Yes it does, but that's the way it is, and why it continues to remain an elusive mystery

Edited December 17, 2013 by imonacan

[Guest]

If anyone actually had the stones to pursue, the subjects are more than capable of eluding .

 

Totally. Chasing after them is nearly always a waste of time. 

[Guest DWA]

^^^As it is with other wild primates.  It almost seems a founding principle of field primatology:  Set up and let the subjects come to you.

I like the way J. Robert Alley put it in Raincoast Sasquatch: "... there will be no Sasquatches in the Mist."

And yes, forgot to say (and it is ironic) that he used the phrase to refer to chasing them, which is not exactly what Fossey did.

[Guest DWA]

Doesn't compute.

If you want to forestall conflict, you don't chuck rocks at people, and howl really loud near them.  YES.  YOU.  DO!!!!!!!!!  I think this is what you don't get.  Scores and scores and scores of known animals - like OMG look at that ALL KNOWN PRIMATES - do it; it's called "intimidation," the world's most tested, by far, way of forestalling conflict.  Right, Teddy???  "BULLY!!!!!"  [waves Big Stick]

This is a huge problem with the bigfoot reports. 

 

NOPE.  It's NOT.  It is very consistent with what is reported for known, highly elusive, apes.  Apes that, if they aren't pushing trees over on you, or crapping down on your head, or hooting en masse at you, or throwing vegetation at you, you could be in their territory for months and never know they were there.  Like - surprise! - another well-known primate, they pick their spots.

You can't be elusive, AND huck rocks at people.

You can't be elusive, AND howl menacingly near people.

You can't be an utter absolutist about anything, and understand nature much.

If you are elusive, you don't instigate conflict, or give away your position.

Right.  Deer NEVER do that, and this is why none are ever killed.  Good point that I'm glad you made.  (Or maybe it's that AR is totally deforested.  I can never get that straight.)

 

Of course Bigfoot can get away with it, and I am pretty sure I know why.

 

You do.  Nobody believes anybody who says they saw one.  See, you did.

Edited December 17, 2013 by DWA

[Guest]

"I've been truly freaked out in X about 4 or 5 times and that was one of them." I have to ask, what were the other 3 or 4 times? Again a PM would be more than welcomed if you don't want to post here.

 

In no particular order...

 

One time, I and three two others were strung out along the mountain side moving toward some sounds another of our group could hear down below. We didn't know what was making the noise, but we thought by picketing ourselves out, we'd have a better chance of seeing it. I started down off the crest of a rise and heard someone walking up behind me. I assumed it was one of my guys. It was clearly bipedal and wasn't trying to be quiet (though I was). My attention was focused downhill so I wouldn't trip when I heard the walking come right up to the crest I had just come down and stop. When I found my footing, I turned around and there was no one there. I radioed to my guys and none of them were anywhere near me. I went quickly back up the slope and saw nothing. That was disconcerting because whatever or whoever I heard approach me was making no effort to conceal their presence (I assume they probably didn't know I was there) but once they saw me they simply evaporated without a sound. 

 

The time the damned thing came up on the porch and somehow made the whole cabin shift and sway was pretty freaky. I could hear it approaching for several minutes. It started by throwing a rock on the roof. Everyone was asleep and snoring except me. When we didn't respond to the rock, it came up and bounced hickory nuts off the back wall for a little bit. Very distinctive sound clearly hitting the wall, not the roof. When that didn't elicit a response, I heard its feet slap against one patch of hard ground outside the window I was sleeping next to. Three distinct steps. Then it seemed to plink it's finger against an old pan on the ground (didn't know that's what I was hearing at the time it happened). Then it came right up on the porch. The thing that alarmed me was how it made the whole structure move. The motion woke up some, my exclamation woke up the rest. 

Once, I believe strongly I stared at one at the end of a clearing late one night. I was looking through a nightvision device and could make out what I thought was the outline of a bipedal figure just inside the treeline near a trail. It swayed slightly though there was little to no wind. Had there been any moonlight or even starlight I could have made it out with that NV, but all I got was the outline. I should have advanced on it but didn't. I would if the same thing happened today. Anyway, it freaked me out so I didn't. A few minutes later I got up and looked again and the figure was gone. Based on a branch it was standing behind, I estimate whatever I saw to be well over seven feet tall. 

 

The time I accidentally pinned down a critter with big round orange-reflecting eyes was cool, but the growl I got from just up the hill and the sounds of heavy animals crashing through the foliage from another direction was enough to make me decide not to try and flush whatever was in there. 

 

That's about all I have time for now. I think everything that's ever really been disconcerting I covered on the podcast. 

Edited December 17, 2013 by bipto

[the parkie]

Thanks, much appreciated.

[Guest zenmonkey]

In no particular order...

 

One time, I and three two others were strung out along the mountain side moving toward some sounds another of our group could hear down below. We didn't know what was making the noise, but we thought by picketing ourselves out, we'd have a better chance of seeing it. I started down off the crest of a rise and heard someone walking up behind me. I assumed it was one of my guys. It was clearly bipedal and wasn't trying to be quiet (though I was). My attention was focused downhill so I wouldn't trip when I heard the walking come right up to the crest I had just come down and stop. When I found my footing, I turned around and there was no one there. I radioed to my guys and none of them were anywhere near me. I went quickly back up the slope and saw nothing. That was disconcerting because whatever or whoever I heard approach me was making no effort to conceal their presence (I assume they probably didn't know I was there) but once they saw me they simply evaporated without a sound. 

 

The time the damned thing came up on the porch and somehow made the whole cabin shift and sway was pretty freaky. I could hear it approaching for several minutes. It started by throwing a rock on the roof. Everyone was asleep and snoring except me. When we didn't respond to the rock, it came up and bounced hickory nuts off the back wall for a little bit. Very distinctive sound clearly hitting the wall, not the roof. When that didn't elicit a response, I heard its feet slap against one patch of hard ground outside the window I was sleeping next to. Three distinct steps. Then it seemed to plink it's finger against an old pan on the ground (didn't know that's what I was hearing at the time it happened). Then it came right up on the porch. The thing that alarmed me was how it made the whole structure move. The motion woke up some, my exclamation woke up the rest. 

Once, I believe strongly I stared at one at the end of a clearing late one night. I was looking through a nightvision device and could make out what I thought was the outline of a bipedal figure just inside the treeline near a trail. It swayed slightly though there was little to no wind. Had there been any moonlight or even starlight I could have made it out with that NV, but all I got was the outline. I should have advanced on it but didn't. I would if the same thing happened today. Anyway, it freaked me out so I didn't. A few minutes later I got up and looked again and the figure was gone. Based on a branch it was standing behind, I estimate whatever I saw to be well over seven feet tall. 

 

The time I accidentally pinned down a critter with big round orange-reflecting eyes was cool, but the growl I got from just up the hill and the sounds of heavy animals crashing through the foliage from another direction was enough to make me decide not to try and flush whatever was in there. 

 

That's about all I have time for now. I think everything that's ever really been disconcerting I covered on the podcast. 

Yes love love love all the episodes about your experiences!

[Guest]

One time, I and three two others ...

Wha-? There was three of us. So, me and two others.