Tree Manipulation/ Wood Structures: What Is The Evidence?

[WSA]

And dmaker, i do mean that sincerely. If we can have an ongoing investigation of these things and you can give us opinions other than the "anything but BF" one, it becomes far more productive. I for one am not giving the "It is always (or even most of the time) BF" opinion. I don't think anyone here is either.

[Branco]

 

A plant pathology might not directly cause a spiral break, but could weaken the limb to the point that a spiral break can happen more easily by storm winds, snow, human agent, etc. Plant genetics might also play a role, i.e. a spiral grain. That seems far more likely to me than attributing this to something that hasn't even been proven to exist. 

 

A couple of plant pathology examples might include: ( from http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tree-diseases-cause-upwardcurving-branches-30590.html )

 

Plum Pockets:

Affecting trees in the Prunus genus, plum pockets cause the infected tree to develop discolored, swollen branches that distort, twist and gnarl the tree’s branches and stems.

 

Anthracnose:

Anthracnose is a damaging group of diseases that generally first appear as spots that may have a tar-like appearance on leaves. When the infection reaches the branches, distortion may occur, causing the branches and stems to twist and curve upward

 

Fail to see what tree diseases have to do with "Tree Manipulations/Structures". Nothing even related to the subject in that link.

[dmaker]

Perhaps you should more closely read my post:

 

"A plant pathology might not directly cause a spiral break, but could weaken the limb to the point that a spiral break can happen more easily by storm winds, snow, human agent, etc"

[dmaker]

The only response so far:

 

 

"Is the brown object in the middle of the break a pupa of a wood-boring insect? If so, that is an obvious agent of limb weakening." 

 

This was in response to me posting this photo:

 

[WSA]

A fair question, I would say. I'd be more prone to say it was if it were an ash tree (emerald ash borer), but I don't know. Even if so, the break shows obvious signs of force being applied, regardless of what might have been in there. Any material will fail where it is weakest, obviously. If that is where an insect is pupating, that is where it will happen. The aspect of the photo that draws my attention is the way some of the fibers were sheared/torn laterally, across the grain. That is just not going to be present without some "oompfff" being applied. We may never be able to say what applied that force, but it was considerable, even though it was a soft wood.

[Guest]

^ I thought those lateral tears looked like old damage to the branch but it's too hard to tell from the picture.

[Guest DWA]

 

A plant pathology might not directly cause a spiral break, but could weaken the limb to the point that a spiral break can happen more easily by storm winds, snow, human agent, etc. Plant genetics might also play a role, i.e. a spiral grain. That seems far more likely to me than attributing this to something for which copious and consistent evidence - including tree damage compellingly associated with other compelling evidence - exists.  that hasn't even been proven to exist. 

 

Faulty reasoning, first word to last.  We need to know - wait for this now - *what can cause a spiral break.*  Those things listed...do not.  (Wrong.  You must PROVE THEY DO.)  This is garden-V bigfoot skepticism:  here's this thing that in a scenario I cooked up in my head but would or could in no way play-test is conceivably possible and so we're done here.  I fixed the last sentence for you.  Hey, no problem.  Just trying to stamp out the notion among laymen that science is this stagnant body of proven stuff.  You can help!  Particularly by reading records of breaks for which all possibilities other than the unlisted primate were ruled out...by what we call evidence.

 

[Bodhi]

Has anyone here tried to pull dna from one of these tree breaks? It would seem to me that some considerable force would be required and that skin cells should shed from the hands if nothing else.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bodhi

[WSA]

Moving on. Existence is not the topic of this thread, nor are those positions responsive to opinions of the evidence under discussion. Including that in the discussion leads nowhere, as we all know. If you want that, there is an entire thread devoted to it elsewhere.

 

When I have the time, hopefully soon, I'm going to thumb through the database and cull some more of the more intriguing reports that mention or document tree stuff.  That might give us something substantive to look at and get away from the back and forth sniping. 

[dmaker]

Hold on. Bhodis question is exactly on topic. The topic is tree breaks, what is the evidence? What could better support the assertion that bigfoot might have twisted the limb than to collect something like unknown primate DNA from hair or skin cells found on the limb near the break?  How is that not on topic?

[Branco]

 

The only response so far:

 

 

"Is the brown object in the middle of the break a pupa of a wood-boring insect? If so, that is an obvious agent of limb weakening." 

 

This was in response to me posting this photo:

 

 

That "brown object" is a section of the underside of the outer bark that was exposed when the limb was twisted. No insects involved.

[Guest]

Has anyone here tried to pull dna from one of these tree breaks? It would seem to me that some considerable force would be required and that skin cells should shed from the hands if nothing else.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say no. Speculation and special pleading are all that is required to achieve the desired explaination. I'm guessing that most proponents don't want actual science ruining this particular branch of Bigfoot evidence.

[Branco]

Hold on. Bhodis question is exactly on topic. The topic is tree breaks, what is the evidence? What could better support the assertion that bigfoot might have twisted the limb than to collect something like unknown primate DNA from hair or skin cells found on the limb near the break?  How is that not on topic?

Who would help share the enormous cost of having such a definitive DNA test done on a twisted sassafras limb?

[dmaker]

 

Has anyone here tried to pull dna from one of these tree breaks? It would seem to me that some considerable force would be required and that skin cells should shed from the hands if nothing else.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say no. Speculation and special pleading are all that is required to achieve the desired explaination. I'm guessing that most proponents don't want actual science ruining this particular branch of Bigfoot evidence.

 

 

Heh, nice wordplay. I hope it was intentional.

"Who would help share the enormous cost of having such a definitive DNA test done on a twisted sassafras limb?" 

 

 

Those that think bigfoot did it and would like to support that with testable, scientific evidence. Maybe they will be the one to crack the case and be famous. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by dmaker

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

A plant pathology might not directly cause a spiral break, but could weaken the limb to the point that a spiral break can happen more easily by storm winds, snow, human agent, etc. Plant genetics might also play a role, i.e. a spiral grain. That seems far more likely to me than attributing this to something that hasn't even been proven to exist. 

 

A couple of plant pathology examples might include: ( from http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tree-diseases-cause-upwardcurving-branches-30590.html )

 

Plum Pockets:

Affecting trees in the Prunus genus, plum pockets cause the infected tree to develop discolored, swollen branches that distort, twist and gnarl the tree’s branches and stems.

 

Anthracnose:

Anthracnose is a damaging group of diseases that generally first appear as spots that may have a tar-like appearance on leaves. When the infection reaches the branches, distortion may occur, causing the branches and stems to twist and curve upward

 

 

RE: plum pockets----how many of these alleged Big Foot damage trees are members of the prunus family?

 

RE: Anthracnose and twisting/curvature of branches. If a mass is attached to the curved limb, per the law of gravity, the vector will be in the direction of gravity (read: the earth), not in the direction of the spiral.

 

If there is torque, the vector potentially will follow the direction of the spiral.  Otherwise  the vector of a snow mass on a branch will be in the same direction of the gravitational pull.

 

 

 

 *snipped*

If a person hangs onto a  tree limb to break it, is the applied force be more likely to be in a vertical direction (read: up and down) or in a twisting motion?

Are tree branches perfectly straight or no? If so than the answer would be, up and down. Where I come from branches have many shapes (YJFhf, to name a few), and hanging on crooked branches creates leverage and twists.

 

 

The shape of the branches don't effect gravitational pull and the directional vectors of that pull towards the earth. Unless the trees in your neighborhood defy the law of gravity and the laws of motion, which I doubt.

 

The branches do exert an equal and opposing force against whatever it is exerting a force against it. The shape of the branch may aid in providing an opposing force. But a hanging mass follows the law of gravity and will pull in the direction of gravity, unless the mass changes direction as I wrote in my last post.

 

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion and the theories behind tree manipulation because I weave baskets for fun (and profit) and use a variety of materials for my baskets (reed, rattan, grape vines, honeysuckle vines, willow, wire, etc.) So I have practical experiences with manipulating plant material into shapes I want them to be.