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Guest Stan Norton

This Is A Neanderthal.

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If my kids don't believe they have been polite enough not to say anything.       I said I wanted to take my grandson out to do field work when he was old enough and my son had a look of horror.     He asked me if I wanted to use him for bait.   So I guess he believes me.   

 

I suspect that if your kids are active outdoors eventually they will either have an encounter or have a situation that makes them wonder if there might be something out there like you have told them.     Most people who are active outdoors who do finally have an experience, start thinking back and realize they have probably been around BF several times in the past but just blew it off as something else at the time.    So hopefully they will come around for you at some point.     

Plus 1 to you from me because I sincerely hope that your kids/family members will believe before something really scary or "BAD" happens to them:( My daughter is determined to hike the entire Smokies alone one day, but now that she is married I sincerely hope that her hubby will either go with her, or ask her NOT TO DO IT! It is bad enough that they camp in isolated areas in places where people have already disappeared.  

If my kids don't believe they have been polite enough not to say anything.       I said I wanted to take my grandson out to do field work when he was old enough and my son had a look of horror.     He asked me if I wanted to use him for bait.   So I guess he believes me.   

 

I suspect that if your kids are active outdoors eventually they will either have an encounter or have a situation that makes them wonder if there might be something out there like you have told them.     Most people who are active outdoors who do finally have an experience, start thinking back and realize they have probably been around BF several times in the past but just blew it off as something else at the time.    So hopefully they will come around for you at some point.     

My daughter has already had an experience while camping *alone* in a tent up in Canada. She had "something" that started throwing rocks, pebbles, and pine-cones at her tent. She could not see anything, and after a few minutes she started playing her flute, and the rock throwing stopped. She quickly packed up and left the area. I still have chills thinking about how very vulnerable she was all alone, and no one knew exactly where she was camping so she could have disappeared and we would have never known what had happened to her:(

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SWWASAS

Susiq:    Does you daughter know that only two things in the North American woods can throw rocks,  pebbles, and pine cones?    Both of them have opposable thumbs.    One is human and the other is BF.   Bears, squirrels,  cats, and other critters of the woods do not throw things.    So unless she thinks a human was messing with her, how can she explain stuff being thrown?    Sounds like a form of denial to me.  I can see why you are concerned.    

 

Divergent:   Range of motion may be one advantage humans had over Neanderthal.     If Neanderthal could not extend arms overhead they could not pick nuts and fruit out of trees very well or swim overarm either like humans.   I had a researcher at a conference recently declare that BF, if they are like other large apes have rotator cuffs that do not allow overarm swimming so it is unlikely that they can swim.     I pointed out frequent reports in the Vancouver Island area in Canada where BF are observed swimming.    Also, somewhere I saw a video of chimpanzees swimming to collect food.  

Edited by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

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SWWASAS

Parkie:   A new report two days ago says they not only ate veggies but seemed to cook some of them too.    Given mankind's propensity to kill anything different,  perhaps HS  killed Neanderthal off because they looked different.    The present day supposition that just because there was interbreeding,   that the relationship between species was benign is ridiculous given man kinds own history of conquest and slavery.   Nothing seems to point to Neanderthal having any link with BF.    Where as there seems to be links to BF relationships with humans culturally at least, and with some BF DNA perhaps there will be genetic links too.    North American Indian cave art often depicts BF.  Nothing similar is depicted in Europe by Neanderthal or human cave art going back 60,000 years even thought there are frequent accurate illustrations of the animals living at the time.    Sumerian art has some depictions that could be BF but it is hard to separate supposed deities from living creatures.   Our ancestors did not expect us to be trying to figure out their writing and art millennia later.    I wonder what knowledge of ancient history was lost when the Great Library at Alexandria was burned.   We are such a destructive species. 

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LeafTalker

Humans have always gathered into groups for protection, shelter, and continuation of the species. The Sasquatch have not advanced, they do not form societies, I have heard of small family groups with a female, male and infant, but never of large groups supporting each other within their species.

Actually, there have been reports of large groups of Sasquatch congregating in one spot. Freeman Young has some really interesting reports about this, and others have, too. (And one person's advancement is another's divorce from nature and all things natural, with all the unpleasant consequences one might expect from such a divorce.) 

 

 

My daughter has already had an experience while camping *alone* in a tent up in Canada. She had "something" that started throwing rocks, pebbles, and pine-cones at her tent. She could not see anything, and after a few minutes she started playing her flute, and the rock throwing stopped. She quickly packed up and left the area. I still have chills thinking about how very vulnerable she was all alone, and no one knew exactly where she was camping so she could have disappeared and we would have never known what had happened to her:(

 

I can certainly understand why you feel concerned for your daughter, SS, but can I offer another perspective on the story she told you? The first wonderful thing is, nothing bad happened to her that night that "something" threw things at her tent. (I agree with SWWASSP that there are only two types of beings who can throw like that, but humans don't generally behave that way toward each other in the wilderness, while BF often do behave just like that. I think she was under some scrutiny by some Sasquatch people that night.) So that story illustrates that an encounter with a BF doesn't have to be something to be feared.

 

The other great thing is, your daughter has incredibly good instincts. Choosing to play her flute under those circumstances was just brilliant. I believe the BF who was throwing things are her tent was doing so to encourage her to leave the tent (or to just respond in some way), out of curiosity to see who she was, and nothing more. (If there had been an intention to do something more, the "something more" would've happened. Flute-playing wouldn't have prevented it from happening.) So what I'm saying is, BF are curious, and they want to communicate. Your daughter recognized this -- even if only subconsciously -- and her flute-playing reflected a willingness to "communicate back". It was such a smart thing to do. And the rock-throwing did stop then -- and I believe it stopped because the BF's "objective", if you will, had been achieved: He (or she) got to learn more about this human, and who she was. He (or she) felt the "return communication", and honored it by ceasing to throw the rocks. 

 

I do think there are dangers out there in the woods, but I honestly think the dangers come from people, not BF. 

 

Which is not much comfort, I know. I wouldn't want my daughter camping out alone in the wilderness, either. It's a scary thought. But again, you have a very special, smart girl there, and you also have a population of beings out there who, for the most part, are much kinder, more reasonable, and more sympathetic than some would have you think. So much so that one of them might come to her aid, if a human were to try to harm her.

 

There are many stories about this. One of my favorites is about a little four-year-old girl who was walking in the woods on her way to a swimming hole (or something like that). A BF emerged from the brush and stood in her way. She tried to go around him or take a new route to the swimming hole. Several times the BF re-emerged on the trail to block her path. The little girl became so frustrated, she started screaming at the BF. Eventually, the BF was able to re-route her such that she was completely turned around and headed back to the house. He only stopped following her when the concerned mom came out into the yard to greet the child. What the little girl finally realized, many years later, was that the BF thought she was lost, and was concerned for her, and intentionally "herded her" back to the safety of her own family. 

 

Isn't that the coolest? A little four-year-old girl, screaming in frustration at an 8-foot tall Hairy Person? That's a world worth living in.   :)

 

 

 

We are such a destructive species. 

 

A sad "amen" to that, SWWASSP.  :(

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Guest Divergent1

Parkie:   A new report two days ago says they not only ate veggies but seemed to cook some of them too.    Given mankind's propensity to kill anything different,  perhaps HS  killed Neanderthal off because they looked different.    The present day supposition that just because there was interbreeding,   that the relationship between species was benign is ridiculous given man kinds own history of conquest and slavery.   Nothing seems to point to Neanderthal having any link with BF.    Where as there seems to be links to BF relationships with humans culturally at least, and with some BF DNA perhaps there will be genetic links too.    North American Indian cave art often depicts BF.  Nothing similar is depicted in Europe by Neanderthal or human cave art going back 60,000 years even thought there are frequent accurate illustrations of the animals living at the time.    Sumerian art has some depictions that could be BF but it is hard to separate supposed deities from living creatures.   Our ancestors did not expect us to be trying to figure out their writing and art millennia later.    I wonder what knowledge of ancient history was lost when the Great Library at Alexandria was burned.   We are such a destructive species. 

Most researchers believe ancient cave art depicts the spiritual beliefs of the time, or shamanistic traditions, which I'm assuming change over time as civilization grows. To assume that NA cave art represents bigfoot would be just as big of a leap as trying to guess what the figures actually symbolize.

 

However, in order to have a tradition like that, it usually requires a pretty stable environment to be able to hand down the information over successive generations. What is even more significant is what is missing from these paintings which is the three dimensional representation of humans, just as the animals are portrayed, more reason to suspect that the animals had a symbolic representation.

 

Neanderthal had nothing like this, neither did Homo Sapiens until the last 30-60 k years, which would indicate some kind of mutation that would cause a change in consciousness to allow for that kind of abstract thought process. This also has implications for the complexity of a spoken language.

 

Once again, if bigfoot is out there, he is definitely not painting in caves. I have read on this forum about the stick structures and rock formations that people suspect are caused by bigfoot, however, they seem to have a more concrete purpose. If Bigfoot is an offshoot of Neanderthal and a HS hybridization, the species obviously didn't get the mutation for abstract thought which has implications for the interpreting sounds attributed to bigfoot as speech.

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southernyahoo

 

I believe it was that hybridization event that gave modern HS that cognitive adaptation abstract reasoning that led to the ability of symbolic representation in artwork/ creativity and invention/ belief systems, etc...There is evidence that later Neanderthal's, with some modern features suggesting hybridization, did adopt jewelry making and other arts/craftsmanship attributed to modern HS that back my assumption. The caves with the earliest examples of artwork came after modern HS would have had opportunities to mingle with Neanderthal communities and these ancient examples of cave paintings are also in those areas where occupation between the two species fluctuated over thousands of years.

 

Assuming bigfoot exists, what if it's a different version from those same hybridization events that didn't get the same combination of genes that we did? It's a big "maybe". I'm willing to admit that I might be a seeing a pattern of behavior and physical descriptions for bigfoot that agrees with what is extrapolated from Neanderthal skull morphology that simply isn't there in reality. .

 

Divergent1, you seem to grasp what some of us see as a possible link to bigfoot. Some of the morphology and behaviors generally extrapolated are the similarities that are intriguing. Our possible inheritance of the right mutations in the FOXP2 gene, which had to come from a common ancestor or from hybridization events is one of those similarities that would be key to indentifying the line of hominids BF is from. Humans and Neanderthals had the specific mutations which is key to speech and are absent in other apes. It would seem to be a prerequisite for language, culture and passing down knowledge.

 

With some of the bigfoot evidence suggesting speech or even language, this would seem almost a no brainer to me. 

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bipedalist
BFF Patron

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(07)02065-9?cc=y=?cc=y=

 

According to this article the commonality shared (FOXP2) predates the common ancestor of modern human and neandertal which places that mystery hominid into the mix doesn't it?!

Edited by bipedalist

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southernyahoo

Yeah I would say so.

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Guest Divergent1

FOXP2 can be present but without the right cultural influences speech will never develop. If there was a lack of ability for perceiving abstract concepts from symbols then whatever language was present would remain strictly rudimentary. I don't know what kind of influence having, or not having, a FOXP2 mutation  would mean for the ability to produce sign language. I don't recall reading any stories about bigfoot using sign language. It would be anyone's guess as to whether Neanderthal ever used sign language.

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southernyahoo

I think I've heard of some hand gestures being used by bigfoot, but definitely not like what we call sign language. Humans learn to point with their finger very early if that's what you mean. When humans have the wrong mutation in the FOXP2 gene, it affects the neural motor control of the articulators used in speech, so it may not have any or as much affect on cognitive abilities as it does on the ability to orally communicate. 

 

So when we hear the articulators being used in the purported BF recordings, I think we can assume the FOXP2 gene in those individuals probably has our version of it.

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LeafTalker

In a story just published the other day, a witness says, "They used their hands to motion much like when we play charades." The witness also refers to "sounds like someone who couldn’t pronounce words well." 

 

http://cryptozoologynews.com/woman-group-bigfoots-repeatedly-kidnapped/

 

Thom Cantrall is working on a study of their stick language; here's a link to some of the many photos he's using in his study: 

 

http://www.ghostsofrubyridge.com/brian/

 

And others, too, have been investigating their stick writing in depth. (Shoot, the video I was going to link to is called "Bigfoot Under The Radar Presents: Syllabic Study 2010 - 2014", but it's now a private video. Darn.)

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Wingman1

I'm starting to see why BF's want to steer clear of us! :laugh:

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Sunflower

Hand gestures and noises both are what I've heard from reliable sources being used to communicate.  Specifically a female slapping her thigh to get the attention of her little kid to come back to her.  Chattering noises when excited similar to birds and monkeys with the highs and lows obviously showing emotions.  Some were very intense and no mistake about what was going on and yes, food was involved. 

 

Animals communicate so why not Neanderthal and so I don't find that surprising at all.

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Guest

 

I believe it was that hybridization event that gave modern HS that cognitive adaptation abstract reasoning that led to the ability of symbolic representation in artwork/ creativity and invention/ belief systems, etc...There is evidence that later Neanderthal's, with some modern features suggesting hybridization, did adopt jewelry making and other arts/craftsmanship attributed to modern HS that back my assumption. The caves with the earliest examples of artwork came after modern HS would have had opportunities to mingle with Neanderthal communities and these ancient examples of cave paintings are also in those areas where occupation between the two species fluctuated over thousands of years.

 

Assuming bigfoot exists, what if it's a different version from those same hybridization events that didn't get the same combination of genes that we did? It's a big "maybe". I'm willing to admit that I might be a seeing a pattern of behavior and physical descriptions for bigfoot that agrees with what is extrapolated from Neanderthal skull morphology that simply isn't there in reality. .

So what explains sub-Saharan afican HS art, jewellery and reasoning? People with zero Neanderthal genes are EXACTLY THE SAME as those with 1-4% Neanderthal genes. I can't understand how people can think that Neanderthals were so different to HS.

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