Collection Of Voucher Specimens

[Guest Divergent1]

I'm familiar with that study, I think the Neanderthal in question showed some modern morphology which might indicate hybridization. I do think you're right that It most likely isn't one isolated thing that resulted in our ability to express ourselves via modern day speech. My point is that the basic ability had to be there in the brain before any other environmental impetus forced the expression for whatever potential for language was inherited. 

I've always been curious as to how much Neanderthal DNA Bill Gates might have, but that gets into the relationship of autism to Neanderthal genetics which isn't really the topic of the thread. It's the same debate over and over again, is bigfoot equal to us or sub-human and which point of view justifies the ethics for collecting a voucher specimen

[southernyahoo]

Your right other Apes have a hyoid bone, it's just not like modern humans or Neanderthals. I have found this:

http://minnieapolis.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/14/1487095-the-hyoid-bone-and-the-capacity-for-speech-in-hominids-and-apes

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This leads to more than speculation about the larger range of sounds possible once one is not limited to hoots and grunts. As Bolles says in his blog, Babel's Dawn:

"But what evidence is there that the loss of air sacs might be related to the rise of speech? De Boer has modeled the sounds that follow the addition of an air sac to the vocal system. Air sac result in lower frequency sounds and a smaller acoustic range than humans enjoy. Air sacs shorten the articulatory range and the mouth is less able to shape the sound that comes out from an air sac vocalization. De Boer hypothesized that when what you say becomes more important than how you sound, air sacs give way. So the disappearance of air sacs is likely a good bit of evidence that speech of some sort has appeared (Bolles E.B. 2008)."

So at this point it seems safe to conclude that the modern hyoid bone was key to expanding our vocal capabilities, aiding our progression from apes who communicated with hoots, grunts and gestures to the modern electronic sapiens who communicates with email and iPhones.

 

Well I think you can now see that there are a number of prerequisites for actual speech, and no ape will just stand up and even mimic our sounds without them. They evolved together over a long period of time, and with all the hydridizations contributing to it, the odds that Sasquatch could have this ability and not atleast be within genus homo are slim to none. 

 

These articles talk about the ability to make a wide range of sounds with rapid articulatory movements of the tongue, lips, jaw etc. but they should also mention the production of quantal vowels which are also heard in researchers recordings and found in nearly all the worlds 6000 human languages, but not in ape vocalizations.

 

These scientists seem to agree that this ability is linked directly to anatomy, neural motor function and abstract thinking.

[Yuchi1]

Your right other Apes have a hyoid bone, it's just not like modern humans or Neanderthals. I have found this:

http://minnieapolis.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/14/1487095-the-hyoid-bone-and-the-capacity-for-speech-in-hominids-and-apes

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This leads to more than speculation about the larger range of sounds possible once one is not limited to hoots and grunts. As Bolles says in his blog, Babel's Dawn:

"But what evidence is there that the loss of air sacs might be related to the rise of speech? De Boer has modeled the sounds that follow the addition of an air sac to the vocal system. Air sac result in lower frequency sounds and a smaller acoustic range than humans enjoy. Air sacs shorten the articulatory range and the mouth is less able to shape the sound that comes out from an air sac vocalization. De Boer hypothesized that when what you say becomes more important than how you sound, air sacs give way. So the disappearance of air sacs is likely a good bit of evidence that speech of some sort has appeared (Bolles E.B. 2008)."

So at this point it seems safe to conclude that the modern hyoid bone was key to expanding our vocal capabilities, aiding our progression from apes who communicated with hoots, grunts and gestures to the modern electronic sapiens who communicates with email and iPhones.

Teenage homo sapiens do not use vocal communication...texting only!

[norseman]

Well I think you can now see that there are a number of prerequisites for actual speech, and no ape will just stand up and even mimic our sounds without them. They evolved together over a long period of time, and with all the hydridizations contributing to it, the odds that Sasquatch could have this ability and not atleast be within genus homo are slim to none. 

 

These articles talk about the ability to make a wide range of sounds with rapid articulatory movements of the tongue, lips, jaw etc. but they should also mention the production of quantal vowels which are also heard in researchers recordings and found in nearly all the worlds 6000 human languages, but not in ape vocalizations.

 

These scientists seem to agree that this ability is linked directly to anatomy, neural motor function and abstract thinking.

But you cannot have it both ways. i understood all along how special speech was. but if air sacs and the location of the hyoid bone which allows speech are inversely proportional?

Then how do you account for the Sasquatch long call whoops and screams people report? If ape like air sacs are responsible for the big sounding calls that people report? then speech would be impossible, it would seem some of the reports are false, as both cannot both be right.

[southernyahoo]

If you accept that humans didn't morph into what they are today overnight, then you can accept the gradual processes at work and transitional forms between apes and humans.

 

I've heard very humanlike speech in an agravated yelling voice in some recordings and I've heard the more monstrous hoots and roars with a common element of quantal vowel production and articulation..

 

The Sierra Sounds vocalization I spoke of earlier starts off with a couple whoops which don't really sound "voiced" to me but the articulated vocal afterwards does. I've heard this whooping in conjuntion with what I would characterize as a "yahoo" call because that is exactly what it sounds like, and in independently captured recordings. The vocalists of these sounds seem to range in size because of the pitch, power and distance perceptable in the recordings. The word "Yahoo" has two of the three quantal vowels in it, and would be the most useful sounds for long distance that a hominin could use in contacting another hominin because they should instinctively know and perceive the salient acoustics of which to be their own.

 

 I've done much thinking about the vocalizations because they can be key to locating them or knowing they are around. It is most bizzare to hear such a combination of sounds and the best explanation for them in my opinion is that if they are from bigfoot, there could be a transitional form between us and the apes and this could make drawing the line between animal and human much more difficult in scientific terms.

[WSA]

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=28714

 

Opportunity presented and shot not taken...   

[Guest DWA]

Well, in all fairness, from the narrative I might not have wanted to shoot if my life's sole ambition was bagging a bigfoot.

 

More relevant, I think, are the number of accounts by hunters who had clear and copious opportunity...and didn't pull the trigger because (1) they were afraid gun equaled popgun or (2) they were afraid they'd be committing murder.

 

Subjective, yes.  But anyone who believes a careful hunter will have the opp to drop every animal he sees doesn't know much about this.

[norseman]

If you accept that humans didn't morph into what they are today overnight, then you can accept the gradual processes at work and transitional forms between apes and humans.

I've heard very humanlike speech in an agravated yelling voice in some recordings and I've heard the more monstrous hoots and roars with a common element of quantal vowel production and articulation..

The Sierra Sounds vocalization I spoke of earlier starts off with a couple whoops which don't really sound "voiced" to me but the articulated vocal afterwards does. I've heard this whooping in conjuntion with what I would characterize as a "yahoo" call because that is exactly what it sounds like, and in independently captured recordings. The vocalists of these sounds seem to range in size because of the pitch, power and distance perceptable in the recordings. The word "Yahoo" has two of the three quantal vowels in it, and would be the most useful sounds for long distance that a hominin could use in contacting another hominin because they should instinctively know and perceive the salient acoustics of which to be their own.

I've done much thinking about the vocalizations because they can be key to locating them or knowing they are around. It is most bizzare to hear such a combination of sounds and the best explanation for them in my opinion is that if they are from bigfoot, there could be a transitional form between us and the apes and this could make drawing the line between animal and human much more difficult in scientific terms.

People want to call them essentially human unless ape like traits are pointed out then of course we need to give them some wiggle room. Just like in the other thread were it's postulated their young are quadrupedal and spend most of their time in trees.

I'll grant you they could be between Chimps and humans or they could be their own Asian branch that parallels us. But either way they exhibit enough morphology and behavioral trait differences that they are not closely related to us.

But they are related to us, as a mammal and as a primate. How much more? We don't know, nor will we know until we have a body or a ironclad DNA sample.

Edited April 6, 2015 by norseman

[BC witness]

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=28714

 

Opportunity presented and shot not taken...   

 

No opportunity here; the man with the gun/light didn't take the shot because the target was running away, in the dark, and the chance of a clean kill shot was approaching zero. Very smart and compassionate hunter. Would you care to track a large wounded creature in the dark, not knowing exactly what it is, or how much, or little, damage your shot had done?

[WSA]

Not a serious opportunity, no. I'm sure it happened too fast to even comprehend it. I just thought it would be of interest to us on this topic. 

[Guest DWA]

Not a serious opportunity, no. I'm sure it happened too fast to even comprehend it. I just thought it would be of interest to us on this topic. 

 

Well, yes, and actually, good catch.  Because I am just now thinking about NAWAC, in X, and all the Bigfeets Trophies they should just *have* by now because any Joe on the street knows that killing something is - and your example abundantly illustrates it - as simple as pulling a trigger.

 

I mean...right...??

Edited April 6, 2015 by DWA

[norseman]

Well there is always the "death blossom".....

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Death+Blossom

[WSA]

 

Well, yes, and actually, good catch.  Because I am just now thinking about NAWAC, in X, and all the Bigfeets Trophies they should just *have* by now because any Joe on the street knows that killing something is - and your example abundantly illustrates it - as simple as pulling a trigger.

 

I mean...right...??

 

 Does substantiate the opposite of "Somebody would have shot one by now" conclusion, now that you mention it. Most encounters are as brief as the one I think is being described here. The human mind is just not nimble enough to absorb and execute on, "Don't know what I'm looking for....don't know what that is...is it human...should I pull the trigger...and maybe I need to think just a second more about this" before the fleeting second is gone and the quarry has scampered away.

 

The second class of the "man-with-gun-has-BF-in-his-sights-but-doesn't-pull-the-trigger" reports are the guys who very clearly see what is there, have ample time to pull the trigger but are struck by the perceived humanity of the creature and consider it ill-advised due to that uncertainty. And sure there are the, "We're going to need a bigger gun" reports too..

[Guest DWA]

Well.  Regardless rules of engagement, and considering probabilities, including that of mainstream involvement in the foreseeable, the Death Blossom invites consideration...

[Guest DWA]

 Does substantiate the opposite of "Somebody would have shot one by now" conclusion, now that you mention it. Most encounters are as brief as the one I think is being described here. The human mind is just not nimble enough to absorb and execute on, "Don't know what I'm looking for....don't know what that is...is it human...should I pull the trigger...and maybe I need to think just a second more about this" before the fleeting second is gone and the quarry has scampered away.

 

*Never* remarked upon, by the very people who presume that what is clearly a bigfoot is a guy in a suit, that got in front of Patterson by, you know, some machination of a devious forest sprite, because they lack a reasonable explanation.  The "guy in suit syndrome" probably ensures nobody lets fly for at least ten seconds...which would be well over into the asymptotic>>> portion of the encounter-duration normal curve.  (Average NAWAC encounter:  like one or two seconds, way over well more than enough to conclusively ID what one saw...but usually nowhere near enough to even draw a bead on it.)

 

The second class of the "man-with-gun-has-BF-in-his-sights-but-doesn't-pull-the-trigger" reports are the guys who very clearly see what is there, have ample time to pull the trigger but are struck by the perceived humanity of the creature and consider it ill-advised due to that uncertainty. And sure there are the, "We're going to need a bigger gun" reports too..

 

One of the best reports of BF predation available - clearly demonstrating why this guy don't need to settle for stinkin' roots and berries on the day-to-day - was made possible by the "popgun pucker factor."

 

http://woodape.org/reports/report/detail/282