BigTreeWalker Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Yes it was an interesting discussion. Especially when I showed him the tracks we also found in the area. Before he started working with the bones he was a Wildlife Biologist, so he is very knowledgeable about animals. His comment about the track impressions... That's no bear. Cougars will usually ambush from behind, jump onto the back of an animal and bite the neck. Sometimes they will go for the throat and try to crush the windpipe. They don't usually aim for the nose area. Edited August 9, 2015 by BigTreeWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Hello BigTreeWalker, It would seem to me that efficient return on effort invested would be better served in the area of large muscle with the rib area berhaps targeted toward the end of the feed. Would you or others who hunt have a take on that at all? To me ribs and vertebra might be the last to be consumed with things like femurs, humers', gluteals, neck and organs and shoulders being the first to go. Cleaning up the scraps left on bones to include ribs hints at several revisits to the scene(s) Especially since the incisor marks were present on ribs. One might expect similar perpendicular chewing on the larger bones as well as incisor scrapes on other things like pelvic bones and scapulas. I've no doubt these things are in your thoughts as well as those of your biologist so consider this a post to bring such ideas out for everyone's consideration. Edited August 9, 2015 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 I have heard of portions of a kill being carried off. The quarters being the easiest to do this with. As I mentioned before the top of the ribs and the area along the vertebrae is where the best meat is found on an animal, the tenderloins and backstraps. The quarters were missing on EK#1. Everything was there on #2. I looked at the long bones and could see no evidence of impressions. However, there could have been, as you said, in the form of scores. In the case of a canid kill those will be the bones that get cracked for the marrow. There were no breaks in the bones we found. If I did find breaks in the long bones I would look for the carnasial impressions around the point of the break. The marks would show up as scores or pits. One thing to especially look for would be saw marks on the lower leg bones or a split pelvis with tool marks on it. These are the most obvious signs that it was a human killed animal. Oh, and no head or skull in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Hello BigTreeWalker, I thank you again for your considerate attention. I guess the reason I'm so interested beyond the usual curiosity about such a creature is the apparent 0.75 inch incisor mark. That's a very large tooth if it's truly indicating being one of the front four. Just trying to get my brain around it's all. My two front incisors TOGETHER only measure 0.625. Edited August 9, 2015 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) You're welcome hiflier. It has been a fascinating endeavor as well as a great learning experience. Those measurements boggle my mind as well. I have been using my teeth as a comparison, as well as going to the extent of making a cast of my bite for comparisons. The marks look like something I could do but they are just plain huge. The bone expert did give me a clean bone to experiment with biting. But I tell you what, you better have strong teeth and no crowns! I think fresh bone is a little softer than seasoned bone. He even took a shot at making an impression. He had to use a cuspid, our canines, to take a bite out of the bone. The point he was trying to make is it takes a strong set of teeth to bite bone. He told me that carnivore incisors just aren't built to do that. My background as I said is in wildlife biology, so this is of great interest to me. However, I have also been a machinist, you know to pay the bills. This pertains because of the fact that I am very good at measuring things, too the nearest .001". Just mentioning this for those that may question the measurements. Edited August 9, 2015 by BigTreeWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiflier Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Hello BigTreeWalker, With images alongside a ruler it's certainly not a question of believing you. This next question therefore is not meant to be a trick one because I am sincere in asking it. I also understand sensitive data possesses it's own set of rules of caution. How much time can you and your colleague realistically devote to this research? Are you getting near the point where you can safely submit samples for verifying your conclusions or do you think that phase to be unnecessary for any concrete conclusions? I realize that great care must be taken when deeper analysis is performed and so I am in no hurry for a final verdict. I'm also sure you are as anxious as I and many others are for any and all verifiable results. Edited August 10, 2015 by hiflier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Because of all the problems with the possibility of losing the samples we intend to keep them in our possession. However, that being said any expert that would like to see them can contact us and we can make arrangements for observation. I would really like a dental forensics expert to have a look at them. I will continue to make comparisons to narrow down any other possibilities as time permits. I am personally in touch with a couple of scholars in this field of study. I certainly hope something comes of all this. Edited August 10, 2015 by BigTreeWalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Just so you are aware Cougars will clamp onto the nose area of their prey to suffocate them. You can see at one point the cat in the video below has the buck in a nose lock. This has happened to horses in my area before as well. Here is another but not sure who has who here........ Edited August 10, 2015 by norseman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Thanks Norse, when I said that above I said most of the time. That cougar in the video is getting the you know what kicked out of him. It's hard for me to picture a cougar doing that with an adult elk. Although I did see a video of a cougar trying to strangle a bull elk in deep snow. The bone guy I was talking to also mentioned that canids usually attack the nasal area during or after a kill. I didn't see the deer skulls, but one elk skull had the nasal area broken. Hard to tell when it happened. The other one was still intact, but the spine was in two pieces. Mr Townsend places more importance on this trauma than I do. Unless it is used to suffocate, what we see is not a mortal wound. It may have happened after the kill by other scavengers. I didn't collect the skull but now that I look at the photo of it I should have taken a closer look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I think the bigger the animal (or if things do not go according to plan) the more likely they go for the nose. Because they cannot break the neck with a bite in that instance and biting and closing off the air way in the neck can be problematic as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Since we don't know how the animals were killed, they could have been cougar kills. However, from our control specimen, the impression comparisons, the disarticulation and stacking of the bones of each of the kill sites, we know it wasn't a cougar that feed on these kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Its my personal experience that cougars are finicky and wasteful, which is a boon to scavengers. Our ancestors lacked fangs or claws and it is presumed that our high protein diet first came from scavenging including using rocks to crack open bone and get to bone marrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 If this is bigfoot that is doing this, I don't think they have the same weaknesses our ancestors did. Their size and strength would compensate for a lot. There have been eye witness accounts of them carrying various animals. I suppose they could have picked up another animal's kill but who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Im not so sure. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zKvGHr8Bgvc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTreeWalker Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 I did watch that and it was interesting. I noticed they gave a time when we showed up, but didn’t know when they died out. Maybe they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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