Has Bigfoot Science Stalled?

[Guest DWA]

If anyone can get anyone to talk, well, cool.  I'm simply observing how well that has been working for the past half century.

 

One thing that scientists have never, over the long term, been able to stop, is science.  Everyone is free to do it, and many are doing it here.  I'm satisfied where science has me on this; what the mainstream think doesn't matter to me.  My ultimate proof will always be what it's always been:  seeing one for myself.  Until then I am as sastisfied that sasquatch exist as I am that mountain lions and wolverines do; the evidence for all three is equally solid.  (All disagreements with me on that last sentence I have addressed, over and over again, here, most particularly the "specimens" question.)

[SWWASAS]

Good thought too. And maybe that kind of approach is what is needed. Of course there's a fly in the ointment about all of this which is the assumption that there is movement at all. The premise of pursuing this avenue of research while interesting to think about falls apart if the Olympic Sasquatch never goes to the Cascades and vice versa. In fact the I-5 barrier may be just that- a barrier. If that is the case then the Southern Cascade region has a dynamic that the Olympic region does not.

That dynamic is the likelihood that if BF exists then the Southern Cascade population took a real hit in the 1980 volcanic eruption. A female bear might have ten offspring in her lifetime of around 35 years but there's thousands of female bears so the bounce back from a severe widespread natural disaster will be more successful and quicker. We don't know the length of time a female Sasquatch has when it comes to producing offspring. Even at thirty five years old it may not produce twins or triplets like bears do.

It's been 36 years since Mt. St. Helens erupted. It might be safe to say only two generating have been added to whatever population was left after the explosion. It would seem certain any anything South of the caldera in Washington was probably wiped out. So the northern remnant learned new routes of travel or always had them in the first place. Some may have even left and never went back but went West or North for good. These are the things that need consideration because ancient habits and routines took as much of a hit as the populations that lived by those habits and routines. Some may have been forced to deal with I-5 the best way they could and that's part of my thinking in this.

If you don't mind I would like very much to follow your thinking in regards to the base to see if there's some feasibility. If you can plug this idea into the picture and maybe add some thoughts to expand on it then please do. This is a topic I think we are all primed and ready for.

Your comment about South of the caldera is inaccurate.     The blast went to the NE.   Most areas from a quadrant due East through West South of the caldera were basically untouched other than ashfall and the pyroclastic flow on the East flank that formed the large lahar.    Even at that there are segments in the area of Ape Canyon, to the East,   where a ridge protected an area from the blast and pyroclastic flow so there is an island of original trees in the lahar area.    Pockets of BF could have survived if they were in those trees.     However the ashfall would have been deadly as far as breathing for periods of time.       I think many BF were probably buried in the pyroclastic flows which prompts my visits to the lahar looking for bones washing out of the banks.      A creek runs through the lahar and erodes the banks strongly with spring runoff.     As far as BF activity on the flanks of the mountain, I found footprints way out in the lahar just two years ago near some rock stacks.      The Ape Canyon area seems active as people who are the last to leave the visitor parking lot have reported vocalizations in the area.   I think BF move from the forested patch near Ape Canyon to the continuous cover that can be found further South on the southern flanks of the mountain or they could move East into the areas where BTW is doing his bone research and there are large elk herds.     After the creek off the East flank dries up there is still water in the watersheds to the East.     

 

For all I know the place as some special meaning to them because of how many of them were killed in the area.    In other threads I have mentioned finding a possible rock cairn in the lahar that seemed to have been formed by stacking rocks.    I have suspected that was a BF grave because of the rock placement and the fact that the feature was rectangular in shape (4X10 feet).     I had the feeling I was being watched when I was examining the suspected grave and other times when hiking the Ape canyon trail.     I also found a cave in the embankment below the Ape Canyon trail that was large enough for a human to climb inside.    There was evidence that something had been using it because of scrapes on the embankment below the cave opening which was about 6 feet up in the embankment.    I have no idea how that cave could have formed other than perhaps it was formed around a big chunk of ice or snow that was covered by a lahar flow and then the ice or snow melted out leaving the cavity.        The trail in that area traverses the island of trees I mentioned that was spared the blast and pyroclastic flow of the 1980 eruption.   However the soil the trees are growing on is ashfall and likely pyroclastic debris from some ancient eruption.        It was a few hundred yards from the suspected BF grave.   

Edited June 15, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[hiflier]

I have no argument with any of that DWA Well said. And BTW, my additional thoughts are that the BFRO issues only those reports that are dummied down and hold back on information. Even when the SSR is completed it will be information filtered by the BFRO. There are a lot of missing details in most of those reports. But then there's a lot of missing detail in most reports BFRO or not. It's difficult to do even citizen science when interviewers do not ask the questions necessary for plugging into much in the way of patterning. This has been an ongoing problem all along.

I think it makes field research and data mining come up short in the area of results. Read the last few posts here to get a feel for what I'm getting at if you would. I think it's what we are not seeing that is important. In other words, we are seeing what we are supposed to see rather than what is? These kinds of conclusions only come from looking at data from different perspectives. To state it clearer, I think what we are seeing on BobbyO's linked maps might be showing subtle and maybe even contrived gaps in the data that maybe should be evaluated along with the actual sightings themselves.

Edited June 15, 2016 by hiflier

[hiflier]

SWWA, so what I'm seeing on Google Earth is snow on the southern slopes and eastern slopes? if so thank you for clarifying the picture.

[SWWASAS]

This is a picture of the trees along the edge of the lahar where I found the rock cairn.       The Ape Canyon trail runs just inside the tree line in this area.   This area was spared from blast and pyroclastic flow because a ridge just to the West protected it from and diverted the pyroclastic flow.     For those that do not know geology, a pyroclastic flow is like an avalanche except instead of snow it consists of superheated rocks and ash traveling at incredible speed.    This area is where I walk the banks of the creek looking for bones washing out of the lahar banks.   It is hard going because it is largely fist size or larger rocks because the ash is washed away by the water flow.       

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[SWWASAS]

SWWA, so what I'm seeing on Google Earth is snow on the southern slopes and eastern slopes? if so thank you for clarifying the picture.

The tree line to the South of the mountain is basically unchanged since before the eruption   Trees do not grow above about 4000 on the mountain and never have.     Most of the year it has snow cover above the tree line but in the fall most of the snow has melted.     The blast went towards Spirit Lake that you can see to the North on Google Earth.     The top of the mountain and much of the North side was blown off during the eruption.   The caldera rim on the North side is much lower than on the South side.   

[hiflier]

Got it, thanks. So how would this affect the picture of an East/West route for the last thirty or so odd years? Would a southern West side to the North above the Toutle seem more likely then? I guess I'm still focusing on how and where any movement would navigate over or under I-5. Or in your opinion is there any transversal of I-5 being done at all? Has I-5 effectively become a barrier isolating populations? Crossing narrower roads is one thing. Getting across four lanes with shoulders, median strips and concentrations development, sometimes heavier and widespread is entirely another.

Edited June 15, 2016 by hiflier

[SWWASAS]

Well for many years the North Side of the mountain was bare of trees for many miles to the North and totally devoid of cover.     I would suspect that prevented any migration through the area anywhere near Mt St Helens.        Now the private Weyerhaeuser land in the area has all been replanted and has trees that are getting up there in size.  Much of their holdings along the Toutle  were destroyed in the blast.    I think the trees are 30 feet tall now.     The monument has been left alone and that is part of their presentation at Johnston ridge on how it is coming back naturally.   Eventually everything up to the tree line will be forested again.     Any migration along the North Side would be impacted because of lack of cover for a long time.     Long enough that they would move around mountain to the South if they migrate at all?   I have no idea.   .   While BF are intelligent I suspect that much of what they do is tradition passed on generation to generation.   I do not get the impression from personal experience in my research area that they handle change very well.    Clear cutting seemed to cause big problems.     I imagine the blast was a catastrophe for them.  

 

I-5 is pretty busy.    But there are bridges and ways to get under it.     The only way to test out your theory is look for footprint evidence of passage.    I would suspect if such a migration happens, it is seasonal.  Moving from the Cascades towards the coast in the fall and returning to the Cascades in the spring.      Catching those windows of migration might be tough because of seasonal variations.      This spring was very warm and fall, year to year,  can be very different.   

Edited June 15, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[Guest DWA]

I have no argument with any of that DWA Well said. And BTW, my additional thoughts are that the BFRO issues only those reports that are dummied down and hold back on information. Even when the SSR is completed it will be information filtered by the BFRO. There are a lot of missing details in most of those reports. But then there's a lot of missing detail in most reports BFRO or not. It's difficult to do even citizen science when interviewers do not ask the questions necessary for plugging into much in the way of patterning. This has been an ongoing problem all along.

 

I wish I had a nickel for every question the researcher was getting screamed at by the report to ask, and didn't.  I'd probably have enough money to make **** sure I saw one.

I think it makes field research and data mining come up short in the area of results. Read the last few posts here to get a feel for what I'm getting at if you would. I think it's what we are not seeing that is important. In other words, we are seeing what we are supposed to see rather than what is? These kinds of conclusions only come from looking at data from different perspectives. To state it clearer, I think what we are seeing on BobbyO's linked maps might be showing subtle and maybe even contrived gaps in the data that maybe should be evaluated along with the actual sightings themselves.

 

Well, let me have a look here.  But one thing I'd definitely think researchers should do is focus on the corridors that SWWAS is pointing out, and do lots of night observations of crossings, particularly that one of the Columbia.

[SWWASAS]

I just happened on an Animal Planet special on Yeti last night.     The Brit that did one with Sykes was the host.   He was in Tibet trying to sort out Yeti from bears.     Anyway he got lots of DNA samples and had them tested.    Most turned out to be either the Tibetan brown bear or another Tibetan bear species.      A supposed Yeti bone turned out to be a black bear.    Anyway one thing was mentioned that was very interesting.    Westerners who stay in the high country in Tibet for long periods of time acclimatize to the altitude over time because their body increases red blood cell production.   That helps with the altitude but their blood gets very thick causing other problems like high blood pressure.    Researchers wondered why native Tibetans did not seem to have problems with thick blood and were well adapted to the altitude.     DNA tests resulted in something remarkable.   Native Tibetans had a DNA marker, the EPAS 1 marker, that was first found in the Denisovan hominid.    Apparently sometime in the past, Denisovans had interbred with Tibetans.     This marker seems to protect the Tibetans from thick blood as the result of living at high altitudes.   The conjecture was that this happened sometime between 7000 and 40,000 years ago based on probability.   Most likely about 1500 generations ago.     Not much is known about the Denisovan species other than they are described as robust based on the single finger that defined the species.  Robust would mean larger than human.      They are close enough to humans that interbreeding was possible.    The program host wondered if Yeti is one of the last of Denisovans remaining in the area.    Perhaps most or all are gone but the human oral traditions remember them?    The Homo Floresiensis was given as an example because even though that species is extinct, the indigenous humans in the area still remember the tiny people in oral tradition.    

[hiflier]

Nice to have you wade in on this DWA. And nothing happens overnight- but it could!

@SWWA, as far as seasonal that to might be narrowed to soon after trees leaf out in Spring and before the leaves drop in Fall. Best for concealment of both being seen and heard perhaps?

[SWWASAS]

Most of the trees along that I-5 corridor are coniferous but certainly leafy underbrush makes a big difference in the amount of available cover.   I love winter field work because of how much better you can see when the brush has lost its leaves.   . 

Edited June 15, 2016 by SWWASASQUATCHPROJECT

[hiflier]

I like the better visibility as well. Late Winter early Spring is my favorite time.

Edited June 15, 2016 by hiflier

[BigTreeWalker]

I wouldn't concentrate too much on the Toutle river drainage. Yes it was pretty much destroyed when St Helens blew. But one thing I do remember is that the Spirit Lake highway ran up the bottom of the valley paralleling the river. So any major movement would have been on the ridges above the valley. Other than heavy ash fall, major damage was in the valley and directly north of the mountain. Let's not forget that the main river drainages in that part of the Cascades is the Cowlitz and Cispus to the north. Which other than ashfall, the mountain didn't touch. Which is also where the majority of the sightings still are north of the mountain. Since those rivers come off Mt Rainier and Mt Adams respectively.

Current sightings and my personal observations do show that bigfoot have moved back into the Toutle drainage below the mountain. Forestation except on the valley floor is still extensive in the area. And the elk and deer populations are still healthy.

[hiflier]

Good stuff BTW. I also agree that the Toutle drainage area probably shouldn't be that highly focused on but agree the slopes and ridges running along the North would seem to be better. Treefall and rocks even in the small feeders could make for difficult travel as well. Can't have sightings with out people right? So one can't rule out areas with no sightings out of hand. I have to wonder if there isn't already a program for protecting BF in place. In considering that how would such a program affect what is available to the public in the way of reports? Or the concentrations of those reports?

If I was trying to protect something so amazing I wouldn't be running around saying, "Yeah, we got Sasquatches and we're not telling you where they are either". I would simply say nothing while providing avenues and ways that they could go about their usual reclusive business. In other words, simply give them a way to remain out of sight as they move around. Trying instead to channel them away from logging activities and Human habitat. Sure some will get seen and reported but the majority will not. Keep saying nothing and the public will just go about it's own business with an occasional news item here and there regarding a BF seen on some road or trail.

Restricting accesses, non-information, ignoring reports, and other things is all that would be necessary. Not saying that's what is occurring- just saying that's how I would handle it. I will go on record as saying that I don't think science has stalled. If anything I think they are actively incorporating methods stalling. There's a difference.