So Why Won't The Habituators Come Forward And Lend Bigfoot Science A Real Hand?

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

So for the habituator who thinks the money ain't worth it and who doesn't aspire to being an "expert", what's in it for them? Let's be real here, the minute anyone comes forward and says "I've been feeding a family of BFs for the last 20 years. Here are the pics. Here are the videos. Come on over and take a look for yourself." the reaction from this forum will be "yeah right, what a fraud. Someone call the insane asylum, they have an escapee. I won't believe that nutter until an independent, group of reknown zoologists, geneticists, primatologists, biochemists, geologists and pastry chefs look into it and come to a conclusion. Until then, that guy is a liar."  And the excuse for calling the person a nutter or a fraud or whatever derogatory appellation will be "We've been burned too much in the past. So we have the right and authority to call that person a nutter, looney, fraud, liar, until proven otherwise." (And you wonder why no one wants to come forward........)

 

 

The BFF has a history of ferreting out fraudulent claims. That's a good thing. If said habituator furnished photos, I'm sure they would be examined in detail. They would stand or fail on their merit.

 

 

 

 

I see nothing wrong with examining the veracity of data. But I do see something very wrong with ad hominem attacks on people coming forward from  "science" and "logic" based people.

[Incorrigible1]

 

 

So for the habituator who thinks the money ain't worth it and who doesn't aspire to being an "expert", what's in it for them? Let's be real here, the minute anyone comes forward and says "I've been feeding a family of BFs for the last 20 years. Here are the pics. Here are the videos. Come on over and take a look for yourself." the reaction from this forum will be "yeah right, what a fraud. Someone call the insane asylum, they have an escapee. I won't believe that nutter until an independent, group of reknown zoologists, geneticists, primatologists, biochemists, geologists and pastry chefs look into it and come to a conclusion. Until then, that guy is a liar."  And the excuse for calling the person a nutter or a fraud or whatever derogatory appellation will be "We've been burned too much in the past. So we have the right and authority to call that person a nutter, looney, fraud, liar, until proven otherwise." (And you wonder why no one wants to come forward........)

 

 

The BFF has a history of ferreting out fraudulent claims. That's a good thing. If said habituator furnished photos, I'm sure they would be examined in detail. They would stand or fail on their merit.

 

 

 

 

I see nothing wrong with examining the veracity of data. But I do see something very wrong with ad hominem attacks on people coming forward from  "science" and "logic" based people.

 

I'm not a moderator nor admin, but would suggest reporting any such attack when witnessed.

[Guest Crowlogic]

^^^ Make your own decision if the Yerkes Primate Center would be a good place that would help you.

 

 

Atlanta — Following reports that a rhesus macaque monkey escaped from Emory University's Yerkes National Primate Research Center on June 15—and has yet to be recaptured—PETA is calling on the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) to investigate the laboratory for possible violations of the federal Animal Welfare Act (AWA). In a formal complaint filed this morning, PETA asserts that the escape indicates that the federally funded facility may have violated several provisions of the AWA, including failure to ensure that personnel are qualified to perform their duties, failure to adequately supervise employees, and failure to ensure that primary enclosures securely contain nonhuman primates.

"These intelligent, sensitive animals don't deserve the loneliness and trauma of life in a laboratory," says PETA Vice President of Laboratory Investigations Kathy Guillermo. "At the very least, Yerkes should adhere to the minimal standards put forth by the only federal law that provides any protection, the Animal Welfare Act."

Yerkes has previously been cited for violating several provisions of the AWA. Last May, USDA inspectors cited Yerkes for a violation of the AWA in response to an incident in which a cage housing three primates was mistakenly placed in a cage washer. Yerkes was charged with three additional violations in the same month. And in 2007, Yerkes was assessed a $15,000 penalty for even more violations.

Yerkes has drawn international criticism from leading primatologists, including Jane Goodall, for using more than 4,000 monkeys and apes in invasive and deadly experiments. Monkeys at Yerkes are torn away from their mothers, isolated in small cages, and subjected to experiments in which they are infected with deadly diseases, immobilized in restraint devices, and forcibly addicted to drugs. Yerkes is also one of the very few facilities in the world that still uses humans' evolutionary cousins—chimpanzees—in harmful experiments.

Read more: http://www.cbs46.com/story/14960350/monkey-missing-from-yerkes-national-primate-research-center#ixzz42njEwWdf

 

 

 

Someone should ask Jane Goodall The hypothetical question if she were to get evidence of a Sasquatch who would she trust to analyze it?

So who says science is humane?  We sent chimps into space and some died but real science progressed.  I wasn't implying to send a live bigfoot to Yerkes.  We were discussing samples from one.  But oh does it require humane treatment to analyze scat, hair and bone?  Oh the poor follicles........

Edited March 14, 2016 by Crowlogic

[Celtic Raider]

 

 

 

I do not doubt that money plays an important role in many people's lives, including scientists. But greed expresses itself in varying degrees. For some people, fame and notoriety isn't worth any amount of the money. For some people it is. Some people want to do their job, do it well, and go home at the end of the day, not caring if their colleagues think they are the greatest thing in the world. Some people want to be the "expert" and want to bask in the glory of being an "expert".

 

So for the habituator who thinks the money ain't worth it and who doesn't aspire to being an "expert", what's in it for them? Let's be real here, the minute anyone comes forward and says "I've been feeding a family of BFs for the last 20 years. Here are the pics. Here are the videos. Come on over and take a look for yourself." the reaction from this forum will be "yeah right, what a fraud. Someone call the insane asylum, they have an escapee. I won't believe that nutter until an independent, group of reknown zoologists, geneticists, primatologists, biochemists, geologists and pastry chefs look into it and come to a conclusion. Until then, that guy is a liar."  And the excuse for calling the person a nutter or a fraud or whatever derogatory appellation will be "We've been burned too much in the past. So we have the right and authority to call that person a nutter, looney, fraud, liar, until proven otherwise."  (And you wonder why no one wants to come forward........)

 

 

 

 

I can appreciate some of the points made, but if (for example) a habituator had genuine 'proof' of a bigfoot family on their property with prints, photos, HD film etc. (which they should have some if not all of if the stories are to be believed) they would surely contact more appropriate people than post their address on a web forum inviting people to come round and take a look. I can't believe that in this day and age and knowing full well the significance they wouldn't see the opportunity before them.

[Celtic Raider]

 

 

 

Regarding Rwanda and Uganda. Check the data from the IMF, UN, World Bank: at least 1/2 of their populations below the international poverty line, because they live in the rural areas where the gorillas (and occasionally the guerillas) are, not in the cities where plumbing, roads, schools, and electricity are, but the gorillas aren't.

 

 

 

I don't doubt for a second that the IMF and the UN have invested hugely, however, that's not the point. The point I believe you tried to make was who would benefit?

 

The local communities do benefit from the 44% GDP produced by the service sector (the majority of which is tourism), the infrastructure put in place - myself and my partner have been to Rwanda to see the gorillas and are going again in the autumn - as part of the package they show you some of where the money goes into local communities, the education about the gorillas and who benefits.

 

I'm not saying that an awful lot of the country isn't below the poverty line, it is. The local communities and the country as a whole benefit greatly directly from the gorillas (86% of Volcanoes National Park Tourism is gorilla tourism):

 

Since 2005, ORTPN (now RDB) with the support of the government initiated a revenue sharing scheme whereby 5 percent of tourism revenues from the park fees are injected into local community projects around national parks. This is to ensure that the local people consider the parks as one of their own (see next section and Box 2).

 

Also,

 

Gorilla tourism provides diversified benefits for the communities living near the Volcanoes National Park. A number of direct and indirect benefits need to be highlighted. Since the tourism revenue sharing scheme was initiated in 2005, a variety of different projects were implemented (Uwingeli, 2009):

Schools: 10 schools have been constructed, with 56 classrooms. There is an average of 65 pupils per classroom, per rotation (morning and afternoon). The schools construction has reduced the distance travelled by children to the nearest schools, allowing them to concentrate on studies after school since they can also collect water from tanks built by the revenue sharing scheme.  

Water tanks: 32 water tanks were constructed after 2005 with 25,000 litre tanks. These provide 20 litres per person per day, and at least 1,250 people are served by each tank.

Income generating activities: 10 community associations have been supported directly through the revenue sharing scheme. However, a number of other projects were implemented such as beekeeping and basket weaving. A focus has also been on training for income generating activities.

New partnerships in conservation and community development brought to the construction of the Sabyinyo community lodge, owned by the Kinigi communities association (SACOLA), but managed by a specialized eco-lodges company (see previous section). At least 3,000 households are members of the community association and benefit through the signed agreement that the managing company pays US$ 50 bed night fees and 7 percent of the monthly net benefits to the community association.

 

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/AFRICAEXT/Resources/258643-1271798012256/Tourism_Rwanda.pdf

 

In fact, I shudder to think what would be left of the country if they didn't have mountain gorillas there.

[MIB]

Not everyone is motivated the same.   Opportunity, you say?   Opportunity for what?   Exploitation?  

 

Some of those habituators know more about the BF than I do.   I have to give their views on what's in the BF's best interest more credence than the views of a person who is motivated by personal gain whether that be fame or fortune especially when that's precisely what the habituator choose to forego.    Some things in this world should not be for sale.   Right and wrong is not based on cash flow.  

 

MIB

[LeafTalker]

WOOHOO, Chasing Rabbits!!!! 

 

You go, CR!!!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!!

 

Sasfooty, tried to plus you a few times, but only had one plus left! 

Edited March 14, 2016 by LeafTalker

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

 

 

 

I do not doubt that money plays an important role in many people's lives, including scientists. But greed expresses itself in varying degrees. For some people, fame and notoriety isn't worth any amount of the money. For some people it is. Some people want to do their job, do it well, and go home at the end of the day, not caring if their colleagues think they are the greatest thing in the world. Some people want to be the "expert" and want to bask in the glory of being an "expert".

 

So for the habituator who thinks the money ain't worth it and who doesn't aspire to being an "expert", what's in it for them? Let's be real here, the minute anyone comes forward and says "I've been feeding a family of BFs for the last 20 years. Here are the pics. Here are the videos. Come on over and take a look for yourself." the reaction from this forum will be "yeah right, what a fraud. Someone call the insane asylum, they have an escapee. I won't believe that nutter until an independent, group of reknown zoologists, geneticists, primatologists, biochemists, geologists and pastry chefs look into it and come to a conclusion. Until then, that guy is a liar."  And the excuse for calling the person a nutter or a fraud or whatever derogatory appellation will be "We've been burned too much in the past. So we have the right and authority to call that person a nutter, looney, fraud, liar, until proven otherwise."  (And you wonder why no one wants to come forward........)

 

 

 

 

I can appreciate some of the points made, but if (for example) a habituator had genuine 'proof' of a bigfoot family on their property with prints, photos, HD film etc. (which they should have some if not all of if the stories are to be believed) they would surely contact more appropriate people than post their address on a web forum inviting people to come round and take a look. I can't believe that in this day and age and knowing full well the significance they wouldn't see the opportunity before them.

 

 

So someone comes forward to the Smithsonian or the National Primate Research Center and says "I have a family of BF living on my property, here are the photos, here are videos, here are samples of hair, here are fingerprints, come on over and look for yourself".  You think they wouldn't be character assassinated on this forum? I don't, even if the habituator is a forum member. (The Rules only apply to members. Non-members can be character assassinated. But sometimes, the rules don't even spare members, like in post #1066 of the "BigFoot beheads people?" thread) Anyhow........

 

If the "opportunity" you cite is fame and fortune, again, for some people the fame and the scrutiny is not worth any amount of money in the world. The cat's meow is also the dog's dinner.

 

regarding Rwanda, compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars the IMF and World Bank pours into the country, gorilla-tourism is a drop in the bucket. And the fact is the most impoverished of the population are those in the rural areas where the gorillas are. (I'm familiar with 3rd World countries and the money games that are played there. )

Edited March 14, 2016 by ChasingRabbits

[jayjeti]

 

The following it written about a habituator.  It mentions two different tales of a trapper in British Columbia living alone in the wilderness.  The article notes that both might be the same person.

 

 

There is a guy in British Colombia, a trapper who lives way out in the woods. He’s supposedly totally habituated some Bigfoots. He’s more or less living with them in a sense. He sees them every single day.  It’s a true story. What’s even more strange is that there is a fellow up in British Colombia, a trapper, who has a similar story. He was talking to a friend of mine, telling him about Bigfoots, and then the trapper mentions that he got kidnapped by Bigfoots once! My friend said that at that point, he stopped listening to the guy, forget it.  The guy said a Bigfoot kidnapped him and took him back to a cave where the Bigfoots were living and tried to force the guy to have sex with a female Bigfoot! Just like the Albert Ostman story, no? So it looks like maybe Bigfoots do kidnap humans sometimes for breeding purposes.

 

http://bigfootevidence.blogspot.com/2011/06/robert-lindsay-bear-hunters-tale-of.html

 

When I see someone felt the need to emphasize 'true story' that would be an indicator to me that it is made up!

 

People who tell the truth don't have to reinforce the fact it is true usually 

 

 

That's a subjective statement, that if someone says it's a true story it's likely a lie.  I think the reason he stated this is a true story was due to the remarkable statement that followed, that he had been kidnapped, taken to a cave, and he believed they wanted him to mate with a female.  The whole subject of bigfoot is unbelievable to many, and people are apprehensive about relaying even ordinary accounts of encouters, but  this is a step beyond the ordinary.  So, I think that's why it was stated it was a true story.  It's very subjective to say the phrase "true story" means its not.

Edited March 15, 2016 by jayjeti

[David NC]

Crow, if the primate center is that lax and reckless with their research rules would you still deem them professional and responsible enough to handle a sample of DNA that may just be a once in a lifetime event?

[Celtic Raider]

 

 

 

So someone comes forward to the Smithsonian or the National Primate Research Center and says "I have a family of BF living on my property, here are the photos, here are videos, here are samples of hair, here are fingerprints, come on over and look for yourself".  You think they wouldn't be character assassinated on this forum? I don't, even if the habituator is a forum member. (The Rules only apply to members. Non-members can be character assassinated. But sometimes, the rules don't even spare members, like in post #1066 of the "BigFoot beheads people?" thread) Anyhow........

 

If the "opportunity" you cite is fame and fortune, again, for some people the fame and the scrutiny is not worth any amount of money in the world. The cat's meow is also the dog's dinner.

 

regarding Rwanda, compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars the IMF and World Bank pours into the country, gorilla-tourism is a drop in the bucket. And the fact is the most impoverished of the population are those in the rural areas where the gorillas are. (I'm familiar with 3rd World countries and the money games that are played there. )

 

 

We seem to be just going round in circles here!

 

To save this and to cut to the crux, you asked How has the local populations near any "field research areas" benefited?

The gorilla tourism in Rwanda (which I think is a pertinent and good example) has had a positive impact on the local population, it is noticeable and verifiable. 

You also asked Why should habituators come forward with their evidence?

Whilst I appreciate that certainly not all people are motivated by money or fame/notoriety, they are strong motivators to lots of people - also if the habituators genuinely care about the animals they might think that professional groups studying the animals to determine their vulnerability or risk of disease etc. might be a very good idea and might also be a motivating factor. With regard to how that could be done, I would think an email to Dr. Jeff Meldrum with a small sample of HD footage would certainly be a good way to contact someone who would be very willing to help and keep anonymity if required.

 

I don't think these are unreasonable, 

[Guest ChasingRabbits]

 

 

 

So someone comes forward to the Smithsonian or the National Primate Research Center and says "I have a family of BF living on my property, here are the photos, here are videos, here are samples of hair, here are fingerprints, come on over and look for yourself".  You think they wouldn't be character assassinated on this forum? I don't, even if the habituator is a forum member. (The Rules only apply to members. Non-members can be character assassinated. But sometimes, the rules don't even spare members, like in post #1066 of the "BigFoot beheads people?" thread) Anyhow........

 

If the "opportunity" you cite is fame and fortune, again, for some people the fame and the scrutiny is not worth any amount of money in the world. The cat's meow is also the dog's dinner.

 

regarding Rwanda, compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars the IMF and World Bank pours into the country, gorilla-tourism is a drop in the bucket. And the fact is the most impoverished of the population are those in the rural areas where the gorillas are. (I'm familiar with 3rd World countries and the money games that are played there. )

 

 

We seem to be just going round in circles here!

 

To save this and to cut to the crux, you asked How has the local populations near any "field research areas" benefited?

The gorilla tourism in Rwanda (which I think is a pertinent and good example) has had a positive impact on the local population, it is noticeable and verifiable. 

You also asked Why should habituators come forward with their evidence?

Whilst I appreciate that certainly not all people are motivated by money or fame/notoriety, they are strong motivators to lots of people - also if the habituators genuinely care about the animals they might think that professional groups studying the animals to determine their vulnerability or risk of disease etc. might be a very good idea and might also be a motivating factor. With regard to how that could be done, I would think an email to Dr. Jeff Meldrum with a small sample of HD footage would certainly be a good way to contact someone who would be very willing to help and keep anonymity if required.

 

I don't think these are unreasonable, 

 

 

As I stated in my initial post, Gombe has not improved the local villages situation to that of a comparable sized town in the Western nations. And it never will because the research areas restrict land and natural resources use by the local population (I use "local" to describe the populations immediately adjacent to the research area, not the cities and towns 25 or more miles away.)  IMF and World Bank contribute far more to these economies than primate-tourism ever will.

 

As for habituators coming forward, you've proved that they will not be believed (see your reply to jayeti March 14, 07:07 AM). So there is no point for them to come forward: there's nothing in it for them. Like I wrote the cat's meow is the dog's dinner. These people have nothing to look forward to other than mockery and disdain.

 

But I'll play along. So let's say Mr. Abee Cee is a habituator and sends samples to Dr. Meldrum.  What's in it for Mr. Abee Cee? (Answer: a warm fuzzy feeling that he's anonymously contributed to BF research.) The reality is warm fuzzy feelings don't buy food for him or his BFs. And if he wants or asks for monetary compensation, he's not in it for the 'right' reasons, he's in it for filthy lucre, which means he's a creep, which means anything he has should be discredited because he's a creep who's only in it for the m.o.n.e.y.

 

I find this discussion to be quite revealing: Habituators should come forward, but if they do.....they're only doing so for fame and fortune, so they should not be taken seriously because they're not doing it for the 'right' reason.  Yeah, right....and you wonder why these people don't want to go public....

Edited March 15, 2016 by ChasingRabbits

[Yuchi1]

The three (3) long-term witnesses (aka, "habituators") I'm aware of came forward in an attempt to share their experiences with the larger community. One of them is a R.N. and her husband is a successful surgeon so (IMO) the financial angle was not in play. What these people received was a barrage of scorn followed by harassment of a level that would make most anyone paranoid. When two of these people back away from those that were engaged in gross exploitation (when at first, they came on as sincere facilitators) the vitriol went viral in that Google Earth photo's of their homes were posted online, even on a particular BF website.

 

That's among the reasons why my advice to a long-term witness is to appreciate what you are experiencing and enjoy the time but in no way expect anything but borrowed trouble from sharing this with the so-called BF Community.

[Celtic Raider]

 

 

 

We seem to be just going round in circles here!

 

To save this and to cut to the crux, you asked How has the local populations near any "field research areas" benefited?

The gorilla tourism in Rwanda (which I think is a pertinent and good example) has had a positive impact on the local population, it is noticeable and verifiable. 

You also asked Why should habituators come forward with their evidence?

Whilst I appreciate that certainly not all people are motivated by money or fame/notoriety, they are strong motivators to lots of people - also if the habituators genuinely care about the animals they might think that professional groups studying the animals to determine their vulnerability or risk of disease etc. might be a very good idea and might also be a motivating factor. With regard to how that could be done, I would think an email to Dr. Jeff Meldrum with a small sample of HD footage would certainly be a good way to contact someone who would be very willing to help and keep anonymity if required.

 

I don't think these are unreasonable, 

 

 

As I stated in my initial post, Gombe has not improved the local villages situation to that of a comparable sized town in the Western nations. And it never will because the research areas restrict land and natural resources use by the local population (I use "local" to describe the populations immediately adjacent to the research area, not the cities and towns 25 or more miles away.)  IMF and World Bank contribute far more to these economies than primate-tourism ever will.

 

As for habituators coming forward, you've proved that they will not be believed (see your reply to jayeti March 14, 07:07 AM). So there is no point for them to come forward: there's nothing in it for them. Like I wrote the cat's meow is the dog's dinner. These people have nothing to look forward to other than mockery and disdain.

 

But I'll play along. So let's say Mr. Abee Cee is a habituator and sends samples to Dr. Meldrum.  What's in it for Mr. Abee Cee? (Answer: a warm fuzzy feeling that he's anonymously contributed to BF research.) The reality is warm fuzzy feelings don't buy food for him or his BFs. And if he wants or asks for monetary compensation, he's not in it for the 'right' reasons, he's in it for filthy lucre, which means he's a creep, which means anything he has should be discredited because he's a creep who's only in it for the m.o.n.e.y.

 

I find this discussion to be quite revealing: Habituators should come forward, but if they do.....they're only doing so for fame and fortune, so they should not be taken seriously because they're not doing it for the 'right' reason.  Yeah, right....and you wonder why these people don't want to go public....

 

 

You do raise some good points. But, the bolded absolutely does not prove anything. It is my opinion (and experience) that most people who positively reinforce a statement in the way that was done above are usually fabricating the story, at the least it is a very well known warning sign in some circles!

 

My position is very simple in that if habituators claim regular activity they should be able to provide the evidence to back that up. How can they expect to be taken seriously when they make extraordinary claims with no evidence or withold evidence. If they didn't want people to know for fear of mockery, then how come they seem to be continually telling people who forward this information on to all and sundry? Don't you think something is off with this scenario? If they are that desperate to avoid publicity and interest then don't tell anyone at all. 

 

I would have no problems with someone making money from what would be a genuinely astounding discovery. I would.

Also, I have never said that the motivations are good, bad or indifferent - I would like to think if it was me that I would be interested in the right parties being involved to secure the future of habitats for the continued survival of these creatures and I would love to make money from it too by selling my HD film of the creatures in my back yard - I'd be on the phone to the aptly named Matt Moneymaker as quick as I could...........I wouldn't care what others thought.

 

I believe there is a strong possibility that the sasquatch is a real animal, the PGF is impossible for me to rule out, but if that animal is real and it's in your back garden regularly there should be some very real, tangible evidence for that, failure to produce that evidence after making a claim in the first place is very suspicious to me.

 

We'll have to just disagree on the 'benefits' thing as there seems to be an impasse    

[georgerm]

 

 

My position is very simple in that if habituators claim regular activity they should be able to provide the evidence to back that up. How can they expect to be taken seriously when they make extraordinary claims with no evidence or withold evidence. If they didn't want people to know for fear of mockery, then how come they seem to be continually telling people who forward this information on to all and sundry? Don't you think something is off with this scenario? If they are that desperate to avoid publicity and interest then don't tell anyone at all. 

 

 

 

 

Your statement is understandable, and yes in a perfect world, you may get loads evidence including lie detector tests. For now, we need to accept some imperfections. Some habituators may want to collect evidence but not all. My opinion is let them describe their experiences without evidence, and make up your own mind based on what they are saying. Being angry with a 'habituator' because they have no desire to keep evidence is foul play in my opinion. This should be reported imho. This attitude also drives them from the forum. You may be driving a true habituator from the forum that hurts all of us and who is a valuable resource.

 

Keep in mind some are telling the truth and some are not. Make your mind up by what little descriptions are presented. If they are fabricating, things they say will begin to not ring true with experienced investigators. Question but do no accuse someone of being untruthful. When you are done reading, ask yourself how much do you believe. We need to let them talk with the understanding some are truthful and some may not be. This is a reality of bigfoot research in a flawed world where common sense rules.

Edited March 15, 2016 by georgerm