Bigfoot: Would You Shoot One?

[Guest]

Pragmatic, I don't agree with your assumptions. Quite a few of the people that I know personally that are intent to hunt these creatures have all seen them, some have had a few encounters. They all agree that they are hunting a big monkey and not some sub-human that a lot of folks think these creatures are.

I do not know if we have "many hunters that have not been heard from again", however I can imagine all sorts of possible reasons for a hunter to enter the forest and not come out again, the least of which would be a bigfoot encounter. Hikers enter the woods and get lost all of the time, so why can't hunters?

Do you happen to have some statistical report that lists missing hunters and in what part of the country they are lost in?

I also do not agree with your assumption that these creatures are as intelligent as us. If they are, then why aren't they so technology savvy as us? How come they don't have any technology of their own? So far, we haven't been able to prove they build shelters, use tools, make fire, or anything that would make them more intelligent than a regular monkey, much less a human.

You guys who haven't encountered one visually, or had other repeated encounters, it may require some humbling to recognize you're guessing on a few conclusions you have about them.

What, in your post, would indicate that you aren't guessing on a few conclusions about these creatures? And what about the people that have seen them, and had encounters, that disagree with your statements? Are they guessing, too?

[Guest]

Well Splash, I can tell you only what I know from my own experiences. Those include more encounters then most. I don't understand why yet.

They don't need to make shelters like we do. They live wild. Why would they want our trappings of life? We don't experience the world like they do. They are in touch with nature, we aren't. We've lost that through the eons. We advanced in our way out of necessity. We lack bulk and hair. We need clothing and structure to keep us warm. They don't. We have evolved weak but intellectual. They are wild and free. They probably value their simple existence. Simple as that.

As for those hunters who have seen one, where is their trophy? What happened? And so they go on seeing them as some giant ape.

What I do know about one of my encounters that WAS face to face while I was holding a rifle on him was that if I would have shot, I WOULD NOT BE HERE TODAY! I know that, yes KNOW! I understood just how small my 30-30 rifle was. And as I've said many times before, it felt about 6" long. When you are staring eye to eye with a sasquatch from just over 20', you will understand. Until then you are possibly repeating the bravado from the mighty hunters who claim victorious triumph as their intent. Let them continue to think they are chasing a big monkey. lol

Like I said I won't go into specific cases of missing people, that's because I don't want to start 'unsubstantiated rumors. Yes, unsubstantiated cause there is no proof, just like there is no solid proof of bigfoot itself. And as I've said many times too, I believe most of them are benevolent.

If you don't agree with my assumptions that's OK too. All I can say is that I've had significant encounters that I use to support my premise for where I am coming from. One I will live by. Thus I will respect these creatures for their right to exist. That doesn't mean I would never try to prove they exist either, because I have tried.

Whether you were to believe me on that too is your prerogative. And yes, many people just get lost.

As for our right to shoot one, says who? lol Just a philosophical point, not argument. I sure don't see many bigfoot lining up so they can be the first ones to be dissected and proven to humans by us. I don't think its an honor they share with us in being the one to prove to the human world they exist.

Today is packing day for our elk hunt so excuse me for not being present until tonight to respond further.

[Guest]

Well Splash, I can tell you only what I know from my own experiences. Those include more encounters then most. I don't understand why yet.

They don't need to make shelters like we do. They live wild. Why would they want our trappings of life? We don't experience the world like they do. They are in touch with nature, we aren't. We've lost that through the eons. We advanced in our way out of necessity. We lack bulk and hair. We need clothing and structure to keep us warm. They don't. We have evolved weak but intellectual. They are wild and free. They probably value their simple existence. Simple as that.

I agree with your assessment that they "live wild". They are animals. How does living wild make them as intelligent as us?

As for those hunters who have seen one, where is their trophy? What happened? And so they go on seeing them as some giant ape.

I didn't make myself clear earlier. The "people" that I know that want to hunt them with guns, have seen them when they weren't hunting them with guns. Because they have seen them, they now want to hunt them, with guns, to provide a specimen for proof. Not as a trophy.

What I do know about one of my encounters that WAS face to face while I was holding a rifle on him was that if I would have shot, I WOULD NOT BE HERE TODAY! I know that, yes KNOW! I understood just how small my 30-30 rifle was. And as I've said many times before, it felt about 6" long. When you are staring eye to eye with a sasquatch from just over 20', you will understand. Until then you are possibly repeating the bravado from the mighty hunters who claim victorious triumph as their intent. Let them continue to think they are chasing a big monkey. lol

What you may have felt at the time of that particular encounter doesn't necessarily mean that others would have felt the same way, under the same circumstances. You also are assuming that I haven't had my own encounters, or that others that disagree with you haven't had encounters, also. I tend to discount someone that claims an encounter when they try to minimalize the experiences of so many others. When I use to hunt them, I always felt that my weapon of choice was more than adequate. Perhaps your creature was more monstrous.

Like I said I won't go into specific cases of missing people, that's because I don't want to start 'unsubstantiated rumors. Yes, unsubstantiated cause there is no proof, just like there is no solid proof of bigfoot itself.

So, you are withdrawing your statement about so many missing hunters because of bigfoot encounters?

If you don't agree with my assumptions that's OK too. All I can say is that I've had significant encounters that I use to support my premise for where I am coming from. One I will live by. Thus I will respect these creatures for their right to exist. That doesn't mean I would never try to prove they exist either, because I have tried.

Thank you. Perhaps, in time, you, me or someone else will be able to provide some proof. Mine will have to be an accidental photo or video, since I don't actively "hunt" them anymore with gun or camera.

Today is packing day for our elk hunt so excuse me for not being present until tonight to respond further.

Don't forget to pack the long johns.

Splash

[Guest RayG]

Living up to your avatar, Ray?

I posted it because I saw it the other night while watching the movie it was in, and I laughed at their reaction. And you don't get to see their rationale for shooting it unless you're watching the actual movie, not just that clip. That too was funny. The bigfoot makes no menacing sound, nor threatening gesture, yet they fill it full of lead and make excuses for doing so afterwards.

You are neither required to share my sense of humor, nor make assumptions about my intentions for posting the clip.

I still think it's funny though.

RayG

[indiefoot]

Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind including related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, understanding, communication, reasoning, learning, learning from past experiences, planning, and problem solving

Scientists have proposed two major definitions of intelligence:

1. from Mainstream Science on Intelligence (1994), an editorial statement by fifty-two researchers:

A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.

2. from Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns (1995), a report published by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association:

Individuals differ from one another in their ability to understand complex ideas, to adapt effectively to the environment, to learn from experience, to engage in various forms of reasoning, to overcome obstacles by taking thought. Although these individual differences can be substantial, they are never entirely consistent: a given person's intellectual performance will vary on different occasions, in different domains, as judged by different criteria. Concepts of "intelligence" are attempts to clarify and organize this complex set of phenomena. Although considerable clarity has been achieved in some areas, no such conceptualization has yet answered all the important questions, and none commands universal assent. Indeed, when two dozen prominent theorists were recently asked to define intelligence, they gave two dozen, somewhat different, definitions.

... wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

I can't find mention of the use or creation of technology in the definitions of intelligence that I have found. Can someone show me a reference that does?

[Guest tracker]

Yea when you run into one they have a way of changing your attitude about pro kill. I always suggest to others take a weapon for other reasons. Anyways Pragmatic is right about getting that gut feeling something different. Notice i didn't use the word wrong, however there are some that are more aggressive. Maybe because of other bad experiences with humans? so some can be uncooperative.

[Guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence

I can't find mention of the use or creation of technology in the definitions of intelligence that I have found.

Indeed, technology has nothing to do with intelligence (though it is often a by-product OF intelligence).

Gorillas, for example, do not have fire, or any technology beyond simple stick usage at best, yet we have taught gorillas to actively communicate with sign language.

For that matter, there has been a painting elephant.

Some animals have a very HIGH degree of intelligence, even a modicum of sentience.

[Guest]

But, it is always the humans teaching the animals. It only makes teaching them easier if the animals have a modicum of intelligence.

[Guest]

Measuring intelligence of animals by our standards? That's an oxymoron most don't quite grasp. Each species is intelligent in their own right, we are intelligent in ours, dolphins in theirs, octopus in theirs, et-cetera. Of course, we are arrogant too, so we have to see ourselves on top and thus gauge intelligence by our teaching scale. Funny thing is, Sas probably laughs at how they can fool us at every turn. lol They probably say, IN THEIR language we don't understand, 'those dumb humans, they fall for the same tricks every time'. Or, 'just whistle when there is a hunter nearby so he'll go the other way thinking its just another hunter who whistled at him in the brush'.

"Because they have seen them, they now want to hunt them, with guns, to provide a specimen for proof. Not as a trophy."

And now that they want to 'hunt' them, have they seen them? How's that hunt concept coming along for them?

There is a member on this forum who has had one in the sights of his .338 Lapua. He was going to prove they existed too once upon a time. But he had a change of heart because he realized it wasn't the right thing to do and I respect him for that. He was guided by his conscience, as I am. The same process of deciding 'not to shoot', will be played out with others time and time again, just as some decide to shoot. Yet, where are the rewards for those fateful decisions?

I'm not assuming you haven't had encounters splash, but have you had a close encounter while having your rifle in hand or were they fleeting images? Nobody's discounting your encounters, what I am wondering about is how some find it so easy to want to hunt one. And as I said, I once planned a hunt, but I was relatively young and thoughtless 30 years ago. There are many other philosophical issues at hand besides handing a harvested species over to science too. And those who think they are merely a giant ape, yeah, they are missing something in their assessment, because I've simply experienced levels of interaction that tells me they are not just some giant ape. Some of that stuff I won't go into either for a variety of reasons. And no, its not because I don't have valid reasons. But some of this stuff is sensitive, just like talking specific names of people who disappeared is sensitive. I will say that I've had a few complex interactions with them that prove to me they are not just some giant ape. Nope, not just an ape! lol If you can't relate to what I'm saying, then that's just where your at, simple as that. I guess its something that can't be taught either. I do have to wonder just now many people have shot at a sasquatch though, only to wound it and end up with one more that hates humans? I personally know two people who have shot them, although one I haven't spoken to in a long time. As for the one I know today, he truly regrets ever doing it, even though he admits their rounds didn't even seem to phase the creature. He was young too and would never do the same ever again.

You say you 'used to' hunt them splash Why have you stopped?

And yes, what 'I felt' at the time of my face to face encounter WAS BECAUSE of many prior encounters. My experiences with them have shaped my point of view of them. Encounters I feel I have had because I made a conscious decision long ago to never harm one. And because of my prior encounters, I was able to speak calmly to the one that time 5 years ago. I was able to walk towards him, keep control of my German Shepherd, pray, speak calmly, and walk past him as he stood there along the trail. He was between me and my truck so I had to. I chose not to begin shooting like some yahoo might do nor did I panic. I didn't start shooting because my experiences of the past have taught me they are mostly benevolent, but I don't doubt for a second that they will defend themselves, and that they even have another human trait, resentment towards humans. And those may well be those Sas that don't tolerate humans. As a result of my respect for them, I've had one of the most incredible encounters one could ever ask for. Heck, I 'spoke' to a sasquatch. No he didn't respond in any way other then to be equally calm and that was good enough for me. And yes, I was more scared then I have ever been in my life. I didn't want to go outside for over a week after that. It took me two years to go back to that location. What was absolutely awesome is that when I did eventually go back, two of them were there, and you could say they greeted me in their own way (howls & whistles). The funny thing is, when you begin respecting them, you get a form of respect back, but that depends on how well you watch and listen too. I guess you'd just have to leave your preconceived ideas behind and open up your views to understand what I'm saying. Maybe it takes a variety of encounters to grasp what I mean, as I don't know the extent of your encounters?

And why would you say I am withdrawing my statement about there being hunters (or others) who have disappeared due to bigfoot? I don't think I did. Native Americans have long claimed the same. Just depends on the circumstances. No doubt plenty of people simply become lost too. I AM CERTAIN that I would have had my head torn off had I fired at him with my puny 30-30 cartridge. No he wasn't one of the really big ones, although they are ALL big. lol I was simply saying I won't go into specifics, and that IS the only way to address such statistics, cause there ARE NO statistics of humans disappearing due to sasquatch. I won't address specifics because there ARE families attached to missing people and the idea of bigfoot is simply unacceptable. So I do my own private discrete research on that subject.

[Guest]

Measuring intelligence of animals by our standards? That's an oxymoron most don't quite grasp. Each species is intelligent in their own right, we are intelligent in ours, dolphins in theirs, octopus in theirs, et-cetera. Of course, we are arrogant too, so we have to see ourselves on top and thus gauge intelligence by our teaching scale. Funny thing is, Sas probably laughs at how they can fool us at every turn. lol They probably say, IN THEIR language we don't understand, 'those dumb humans, they fall for the same tricks every time'. Or, 'just whistle when there is a hunter nearby so he'll go the other way thinking its just another hunter who whistled at him in the brush'.

Yes, humans try to measure the intelligence of animals. That's what we do. And we are pretty good at it. Because we are on top. No arrogance about it. It is just a fact. If we didn't give a hoot about the animals, there wouldn't be so many conservation programs going on in this country.

And now that they want to 'hunt' them, have they seen them? How's that hunt concept coming along for them?

I haven't checked in with them lately, but I suppose it is going just as good as seeing one with out a gun.

I'm not assuming you haven't had encounters splash, but have you had a close encounter while having your rifle in hand or were they fleeting images? Nobody's discounting your encounters, what I am wondering about is how some find it so easy to want to hunt one.

Because some people that have seen them, know that they are just an animal, for lack of a better description, just an ape. And they know they are hunting an animal, not some sub-human. They don't have some romantic concepts, concerning these creatures, based upon some fairy tales expressed by someone that has never seen one. If I could have gotten a clear shot, I have no doubt that my 12 gauge, with 600 grain, Black Magic 3 inch slugs, would have been more than adequate to take the creature down. I have hunted humans, hunting animals is no problem.

You say you 'used to' hunt them splash Why have you stopped?

As I said in another post, I stopped hunting them because I considered it a waste of my time. It was taking time away from my enjoyment of just being in the woods. So even though I can be considered pro-kill in thought, my actions are certainly no-kill. I don't even bother to take a gun with me anymore. I do carry a camera, and if I was so lucky to get a photo of one, it would probably be by accident.

And why would you say I am withdrawing my statement about there being hunters (or others) who have disappeared due to bigfoot? I don't think I did.

You made the statement. I asked you if you had any statistical report on missing hunters and the areas that they went missing? Then you turtled up on me with the usual "I know but I can't say because of" answer. So in other words, you have no basis to state that hunters go missing because of bigfoot.

By the way, did you remember to pack your long johns?

Splash

[Guest]

PT, I'm getting the feeling that you are in the "they are big, misunderstood psuedo-humans with ESP powers" camp, which is fine if it hits your switch. For the record, I am in the " super-sized, highly intelligent ape, yes ape, with no super powers" camp...

I'm finding you a bit confusing. I don't doubt your encounters, BTW, however You say they are big gentle sort of humans (with the odd bad actor), But you also say repeatedly say your life was in danger in a close up encounter? So what is it?

Speaking for myself, if I happened to have my "puny" 30-30 mounted, a clear 20 foot shot, and I had the crosshairs on any North American critter's head, it won't make it to me. I had exactly this situation with a large black bear in Sask. in 1994, and it didn't make a single step past the 20 foot mark I had decided was the the "close enough" spot. Yes, I would rather have my 338 Mag for the situation you describe, but the difference between the two on a head shot at 20 feet is academic. Frankly, the accurate fast follow up shots I or any other person practiced with a LA 30-30 (mine is a 336 BL) can deliver at close range with something like the 160 grain Leverevolutions (my preferred 30-30 load), make it an excellent choice for defensive carry in the field. Now for actual hunting of something this sized, of course the 338 gets the nod, of course...

If monkees have ESP, use infra-sound, and so forth they have nothing to fear from humans as they can master us and manipulate our under-developed brains like puppets, at will. I find all that more than a bit much to swallow. That is a general statement of my opinion, not a a slam on you personally, PT...

[Guest tracker]

I am not sure i like the word dangerous and Sasquatch together? Sure there's a risk, they are big, powerfull, cunning, intimidating and wild. Do we use the word dangerous on creatures that attack other creatures and or people or just on everything were affraid of?

[Guest]

LOL, yeah we do a great job with our conservations programs at times as we countered it with dams that stopped the Salmon runs. Animals do much better without our help. Sure our conservation programs have helped, but heck, we created most of the problems.

I haven't checked in with them lately, but I suppose it is going just as good as seeing one with out a gun.

LOL, I kinda doubt it. We would have heard about it.

A much smaller percentage of people have the 'they are just an ape' opinion after they have seen them then those who consider them more like early humans. How many people decided NOT to shoot at them for that reason? You read about it repeatedly.

I have hunted humans, hunting animals is no problem.

I didn't see you in Deliverance did I Splash? lol Hopefully you mean you were in law enforcement or had dogs for an official purpose...?

There's no turtling Splash, there are hunters (and others) who have disappeared without sign, and dogs never pick up a scent even months later. Yeah, there's a leap to be made and like any case, you look at the information following a hypothesis based on similarities and those things that don't add up. We know sasquatch exists, we agree on that right? I'm sure we can also agree that we know very little about them right? I can't prove that hunters have faced the wrath after shooting one just like you can't do the opposite. But there is a basis for the theory that goes back hundreds of years.

I guess if you are one to disregard (or just simply ignore) the overwhelming number of accounts where people opine them as looking human after THEIR encounters, or you haven't experienced the same in quality yourself, you can't be expected to view them as much more than some big monkey. Those happen to be the limits of your experiences not mine. Guess one could say that monkey is on your back on that one. We all draw from our experiences, some have better experiences then others as with any subject. Would you agree there are some who understand Grizzlies better than others? Maybe some people will always view us as being omnipotent and will never allow oneself to view a species like sasquatch as having any level of equal intelligence? I suppose if ufo's someday show up and begin exterminating the parasitic humans, we'll get a dose of our supreme omnipotence. lol Pardon that, but I'm also not the only one here who feels that those who see them as just some big ape and find it so easy to kill one, are missing a few key pieces of the puzzle.

Now you went and done it NDT, you put me in a 'camp'. lol You attempted to marginalize my position by putting a label on me. Sad sad... Of course that means you probably haven't had any experiences in life that have shown you there is more to our universe then the physical? Do you mean you don't believe in such things? If you are a hunter, which I presume you are by your avatar, just how do you rationalize being able to sense when you are being watched? Surely you must have a female relative who has KNOWN that something was wrong with say her sibling? Or maybe someone had a bad feeling that something bad would happen and it did? Yeah, there's tons we don't know about what our own brains are capable of. Do you presume to know that sasquatch haven't evolved in ways different then we have? And you know what, our government and universities all over the world have spent more money on things like esp then they ever will on studying bigfoot. Those who MUST remain closed minded about this stuff are really the ones who are just stuck in the mud.

As for that encounter NDT, yeah it can sound confusing. I agree. I was in the woods on the last hunt of the day. I had my German Shepherd dog with me. She was with me as my companion and she knew to not chase or bark at animals. I had her with me because she had terminal cancer and I was going to spend whatever time I could with her plus she loved the woods. So anyways, I was only 150 yds or so from my truck but had a small gully to pass through along the way from where I was inside a clearcut. Yeah I was real close to my truck. Anyway I was sitting there for about 45 mins and facing dusk fast, so I decided to head back in hopes of maybe seeing something along the timber's edge on the way. Well, the second I stood up, he comes crashing through the old growth on one side. Was no mistaking the source when you can hear each step and the branches breaking in front of him. He was on a beeline course to cut me off and there was no way I could beat him to where we would intersect. That would also lead to panic and a totally different situation with me running. So I simply began assessing my situation. Keep in mind its getting dark fast and the choice I quickly ruled out was staying in the false safety of the open clearcut all night. Given his very strong approach, I had no idea what his intentions were. He sounded very angry just from the crashing towards my route out. So I knew I would have to approach him where he was now along the trail if I wanted to get back at my truck. I prepared everything I could and made the slow cautious walk towards where he stood, including having to go down into this small gully and be below where he was about 40 feet ahead. So yeah I was extremely scared. I never said my life was in danger though. But there is no question that situation was tenuous at best because HE was in the stationary position and I had to advance on HIM. Scared to death, yeah, but also as calm as someone can be under those circumstances. You'd have to be in my shoes I guess...

If monkees have ESP, use infra-sound, and so forth they have nothing to fear from humans as they can master us and manipulate our under-developed brains like puppets, at will.

Once again those are your words and misinterpreted perception NDT. If you want to understand a subject you are not versed in, it will simply take research and REAL open minded objectivity on your part. If you are of a mind that just won't accept any of this stuff going in, well you won't, ever. I know better than to ever think I understand our world or universe. Do you?

Yeah Tracker, I don't see them as dangerous either. Most are benevolent and seem shy toward us. They seem to want to live their lives without having to deal with us. But there are those who we have shot or harassed. WE don't see how the repeated behavior of US affects them. In some areas they are hunted significantly, this is bound to have an adverse affect. Conditioning if you will. I think its sad that some don't understand how our long term lethal attempts at them change their behavior towards us. Yeah we are the intelligent ones here right. lol

Edited October 31, 2010 by PragmaticTheorist

[Guest]

I didn't see you in Deliverance did I Splash? lol Hopefully you mean you were in law enforcement or had dogs for an official purpose...?

No, I just liked hunting humans. Compared to hunting animals, humans are dumb.

Pragmatic, I would love to carry on this conversation with you, but I find it tiring to try to answer to your vast generalizations without any reports or statistics to back you up. I understand you have your opinions that you claim to be based upon your own experiences, however I am afraid that I don't believe you. And I am sure that's OK with you. You are not out to prove anything, anyway, right?

Good luck in your endeavors and I hope your elk hunt proves successful.

Splash

[Guest tracker]

Hey PT,

You forgot selfserving and destructive. All other creatures live in harmony, humans try to kill and control everything including the earth itself. Were the morons of this planet.